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R.C: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to Reality Check

Radio for March 10, 2011.

This is your host, R.C. Welcome to the show again. This

is my weekly show on politics and presidential eligibility, and

we have a guest this week who couldn't be with us last week,

because some of his legislative business took priority, so I

appreciate - I talked with Representative Hatfield yesterday,

and we were able to reschedule him here tonight for a few

minutes, so certainly appreciate him giving up his time.

Representative Mark Hatfield is from the 117th District in

Georgia, from Waycross. He's a graduate of the fine University

of Georgia law school, and I believe he's also Secretary of

what's the equivalent of the Judiciary Committee.

Representative Hatfield has introduced a bill on presidential

eligibility - one of the so-called 'birther bills'. There are

about - depending on how you count - ten or twelve of them. So,

without further ado let's bring up Representative Hatfield.

0:2:42

R.C: Good evening, Representative Hatfield. Welcome to the

show.

Rep. M.H: Good evening R.C. How are you doing?

R.C: Hey, doing great. (they talk over each other)

Rep. M.H: Real quickly let me just correct you about a

couple of things. I'm in District 177 in Georgia, and I'm also

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the - I'm the Vice Chairman of the Judiciary Non-Civil Committee

in the Georgia House.

R.C: Okay, thank you. I misread the district there, I

appreciate the corrections. So, why don't we jump into it,

because I know you said you only had about twenty minutes here

tonight so let's get right into the meat of it.

Rep: M.H: Sure.

R.C: Why did you submit the bill, and what - what's in the

bill?

0:3:20

Rep. M.H: Well, this is House Bill 401, and it's entitled

the Presidential Eligibility Assurance Act, and this bill is

basically a bill which would require that presidential and vice-

presidential candidates, in order to be included on the Georgia

ballot, in the Presidential Preference Primary, or in the

General Election, would have to submit documentary evidence of

his or her satisfaction of the natural born citizenship

requirement, as well as the age and residency requirement of

Article 2, Section 1 of the Constitution.

And this Bill is - basically, it's an important bill I

feel, because, it's important that we work to uphold the

principles of our founding fathers as laid out in the

Constitution, and right now, there is, there is currently

nothing that we have from Congress in the way of guidance, as to

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the enforcement of Article 2, Section 1, and I feel that in the

absence of any action by Congress, that the states have the duty

and obligation to step forward, and try to make sure that those

eligibility requirements are enforced.

0:4:46:

R.C: Okay. And what are some of the specific requirements

in the bill?

Rep. M.H: Well, the bill, as I mentioned to you when we

spoke last evening, the bill is - has undergone some change

since it was originally introduced. We have a substitute that's

drawn up, but I'll just tell you, basically, as it was

originally introduced, the bill would require that a

presidential or vice-presidential candidate submit an affidavit

showing that he or she meets the requirements of natural born

citizenship, age and residency; fourteen years residency in the

United States, and that the candidate would append to the

affidavit, documentation, showing - proving that the candidate

meets those requirements, and it expresses a first preference

for a certified copy of an original, a first original long form

birth certificate.

In the absence of that, if such a birth certificate does

not exist or is not available, then the candidate would be

permitted to submit other documentation as he or she deemed

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appropriate, that would either individually or collectively show

that he or she meets the eligibility requirements.

The bill also - as to the affidavit - originally included

some language which we discussed, that would ask that the

candidate swear to the fact that he or she had never been a -

held dual citizenship or multiple citizenship, and that the

candidate had only had allegiance to the United States of

America, and finally, that the candidate list the residences

that the candidate lived at or in for the fourteen years

preceding the execution of the affidavit.

Now that has, that has changed with the substitute, because

we had, as you and I have discussed, there are, certainly the

issues have been raised, they - people - a lot of people have

claimed that, you know, it's a political bill, and so in order

to, to allay concerns about the bill's potential political

nature, I have proposed a substitute which would move the

effective date of this bill to July 1 of 2013, and that makes it

clear that President Obama would not be subject to the

requirements of the bill, yet we would still be able to get into

law some definite means of enforcing the Article 2, Section 1

requirements.

0:07:40

Also, just finally, the substitute would also remove the

dual citizenship issue, multiple citizenship, and basically just

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require a fairly bare-bones affidavit stating that the candidate

meets the age, and natural born citizenship requirements, and

that he or she has been a resident for fourteen years in the

United States.

R.C: I'm sorry Representative Hatfield, I'm having a little

difficulty - it's bringing up some callers here before I'm

ready, and a little bit of that got over - unfortunately it

didn't come through, but I think I got the gist of it. So you're

resubmitting the bill - let me summarize and you can correct me

if I'm wrong.

Rep. M.H: OK

R.C: You're re-submitting the Bill, and you're removing the

no dual citizenship requirement?

Rep. M.H: Right, right.

R.C: And...

Rep. M.H: But we're not - it's not... it's not re-

submitting the bill. Basically, you know, as the bill, any bill

that is filed goes through the process of Committee hearings,

and most bills, during that process, evolve in form, and

eventually result in an amended bill, or in a substitute bill,

and that's basically what I'm doing here is, is offering a

substitute to the original bill - it'll still be under House

Bill 401.

0:09:03

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R.C: OK. So we'll call it the revised... revised House

Bill 401.

Rep. M.H: Right.

R.C: Does it still have the same requirements on the birth

certificate, that - the same language? That it has to be a

certified exact copy of the candidate's first original long form

birth certificate?

Rep. M.H: Yes, yes, it does.

R.C: And does it still say it has to have the name of the

specific hospital or other location, attending physician at the

candidate's birth, name of the parents, respective birth places

- that language, is that still in there?

Rep. M.H: It has most of that language. I took out the

portion about the parents current residences, as well as the

requirement that the birth certificate show attending witnesses,

and I'll tell you, just, my basis for doing that, I, when I was

at home over the weekend, you know - as you know we're in the

legislative session right now, but we break for the weekends,

and when I was at home over the weekend, I was able to pull a

copy of my long form birth vertificate, and was able to, you

know, look at the specific items that are on the birth

certificate here in Georgia, and I think that these are, what

I've got now is that it would include the candidate's date, time

and place of birth, the name of the specific hospital or other

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location at which the candidate was born, the attending

physician at the candidate's birth, and the names of the

candidate's birth parents and their respective birth places.

0:10:30

R.C: Now, aren't you going to have a problem on this bill,

with the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution?

Because other states - as a matter of fact several other states

- only issue what is commonly now termed the short-form birth

certificate, the Certification of Live Birth, the computer-

generated type certificate that we're all familiar. And, it

sounds like your bill still reads in such a way that that would

not be acceptable proof (they talk over each other)

Rep. M.H: Well, that's true... the Bill does actually

contain - I've got a line in here that says the candidate shall

not attach certified or other copies of non-original documents

or records, and you know, I agree with you that many states, if

you just go and make a generalized request for a birth record,

they're going to give you a summary document, which is a

Certificate of Live Birth - it's computer generated. But that

doesn't mean that you can't obtain that - the original long form

birth certificate, and I have heard the arguments about the Full

Faith and Credit clause, but this really, basically, when we're

taking some action at the state level, I'm relying on a couple

of things: One, that yes, the United States Constitution sets

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out the eligibility requirements for the office of President.

However, the States have the duty of carrying out the elect...

the - the actual qualification of the candidates and the

elections of the candidates. And so, I don't think that -

inasmuch as we're dealing with the access to the Georgia ballot,

and not any other State's ballot - that we would have the

ability in Georgia to, to set the requirements to get on the

ballot in our State.

0:12:25

R.C: Well, I certainly disagree with that, because I think

that you're trying to require a birth certificate beyond what

many states will give, and you - you said something I'm going to

take issue with. You said the original long form birth

certificate is obtainable. I've, I know many, many people have

tried - of the birther community - to get a long form birth

certificate of Hawaii. They claimed they were going to do it.

And Hawaii has stated specifically that since 2001, when you

request a birth certificate, what you get is a Certificate very

similar to the one that was published for President Obama. They

will not supply the other birth certificate with certification

on it now...

Rep. M.H: Let's - and I don't mean to interrupt - but let's

assume that that is correct, and that Hawaii can only issue the

Certificate of Live Birth that's computer generated. Even under

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- under that scenario, in my bill, you would still be able to

submit other documentation, and I've got in there language that

says other documentation that may include but not be limited to

- and then we've got things like, medical records which would

include birth records, baptism records, school records, passport

records, things of this nature. I've got a, sort of a laundry

list, but it's a non-exclusive laundry list of things that would

be acceptable, and would meet the requirements of the bill, in

order to get on the Georgia ballot. So if we're not saying

that if you don't have a long form birth certificate that

there's no way that you get on the ballot.

On the contrary, if you don't have - if there's not a long

form birth certificate in existence, then this bill would

specifically allow the submission of other documentation, and,

that would - you know - satisfy the eligibility requirements, or

show compliance with the eligibility requirements.

0:14:35

R.C: Well, isn't there a problem requesting medical

records? Don't you butt up against the medical privacy laws in

that case?

Rep. M.H: Well, sure. I mean if, if, assuming - and I

think you're assuming that the state would be making that

request, but my bill would put the onus on the candidate to

obtain those records and provide them to the state. So I agree

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with you that, you know, just like in the current situation with

the President, that, you know, someone cannot come in and

reque... someone that does not have a tangible interest in the

record cannot come in and request from Hawaii those records,

which are confidential, and not subject to public review, but

here we're talking about a bill that says the candidate, in

order to get on the ballot, would supply those.

0:15:31

R.C: But aren't these documents - would these documents

then be placed on public review, or only seen by the Secretary

of State?

Rep. M.H: They would - they would be available for public

review.

R.C: So you're asking you're going to ask the candidates

to supply private records, then?

Rep. M.H: Well, yes... and R.C, I think that, you know,

while some people may see that as a, as a burdensome

requirement, I mean we're not talking about running for city

council here, we're talking about running for the highest office

in the land - I mean the leader of the free world - and to

expect the person who is going to take on that awesome task and

responsibility to submit just the minimum amount of

documentation showing that he or she meets those requirements as

set out in the Constitution, I think is not asking a lot.

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I mean, you know, we have kids today, in order to play

Little League baseball, they've got to produce a birth

certificate. So, you know, to say that a candidate would be

required to produce some documents - and yes, they would be

subject to public inspection - but then how many presidential

candidates have released their medical records over the years?

And presidents who actually made it into office? So, I don't

think that's asking too much.

0:16:48

R.C: Actually, I didn't see John McCain's medical records.

I saw about a one-paragraph summary, and I didn't see a lot of

Obama's, I mean that's - that's been overblown...

Well, let's, let's move on. Does your bill - does your

bill still have the requirement that the candidate has to supply

an affidavit showing - stating where they've lived, and their

places of residence for the precedingfourteen years?

Rep. M.H: Right. No, that was taken out

R.C: Okay...

Rep. M.H: - because I do - I do think that - to the extent

that we said that - that I said the precedingfourteen years,

prior to the execution of the affidavit, that may in fact

conflict with the Constitutional requirement that they'd just

have been a resident for fourteen years. So, in order to make

sure that this was not something that was - that was going

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beyond the strict requirements of the Constitution, I made that

change, so that it only requires just a showing that the

candidate has been a resident for fourteen years total.

0:17:51

R.C: Okay. And, well, let me ask you this question. I -

as we discussed last night, I don't see that we've ever had a

problem. I don't think we have a problem with this President.

I don't think we've had a problem with other Presidents, but,

knowing what you know, from what's available in the public, and

in your opinion, is the current President eligible to hold

office? Knowing what you know, and just an opinion.

Rep. M.H: Well, I'll I will have to say - to give the

same answer I've given when I've been asked this in the past,

and that is, I don't know. And, I could - I could say, as a lot

of people have said, that sure, that he, he - he said that he

meets the eligibility requirements and that's it. But, you

know, I think that there - we have reason to be, at least,

suspicious over the situation, because whether you agree with

the issue or not, you have to admit that this issue has become -

has taken on national significance.

And, at a minimum, it seems to me, that the President would

come out and say, hey, we're going to put this, we're going to

put this issue to rest. I'm going to release documentation,

whether it be a long form Birth Certificate or other

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documentation, that - that will put this issue to rest. And I

think the fact that this has gone on for so long, and has not

been addressed by the White House, it - you know - it raises

suspicions. And I'm not - I'm not here to say that the

President was not born in Hawaii. I have no personal knowledge

of that one way or another.

I would say that I understand he said that he was, and I

don't have any basis to say otherwise, but it - it still begs

the question aren't we, as a country, entitled to expect that a

candidate who is running for the highest office in the land is

going to meet a higher threshold. And in order to do that, I

think that you have to - you have to bring forth the records,

you're going to have to - you know - have an honest dialogue

with your population.

0:20:00

R.C: Well, what about Joe Biden? I'll ask you the same

question about Joe Biden, because you didn't even - your

original bill last year didn't even include anything about the

vice president.

Rep. M.H: I agree with you, and that's absolutely true,

but basically, what - what I was doing last year was putting -

putting something out there, and I'll tell you I got the

language for last year's bill straight from the Arizona version,

because it was an issue that was up and coming at that time, it

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was something that I'd had interest in, and I felt like - that

we needed an opportunity to put something out there, and start a

public dialogue about the issue. And, in fact, you know it did

trigger public dialogue in Georgia, and has contributed to the

overall dialogue in the country about this issue. And what I

did was, I came back this year, as I said I would, and I came

back with a more comprehensive bill that I think addresses the

issue, probably in a more thoughtful manner, and recognizing

that the Constitution specifies that the requirements for

holding the office of vice president are the same as those for

holding the office of president - you know - I think it's only

fair to include that.

0:21:24

R.C: Right. Well, I'll tell you what, I've got a whole

slew of callers lined up here. What I'd like to do is maybe

give a couple of them maybe a shot here.

Rep. M.H: Sure.

R.C: The first caller is actually from Georgia.

Rep. M.H: Okay.

R.C: Go ahead. I think this is Loren.

Loren: Yes. Good evening Representative Hatfield.

Rep. M.H: Is this Loren Collins? [hereafter, L.C]

L.C: Yes, it is.

Rep. M.H: How're you doing?

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L.C: Doing well, sir.

Rep. M.H: Good.

L.C: I've got to say, sir, first of all it's good to talk

to you, and...

Rep. M.H: Good to talk to you.

L.C: And it's encouraging, what I've heard so far. It

sounds like you've addressed a lot of the - not just the issues

that I - that I've written about, but also some other ones that

I was planning on bringing up, but you've pre-empted me on it,

it appears, so...

Rep. M.H: Well, I - you know - the process of a bill

talking shape is - is sometimes a slow one, but it's a matter of

going through the committee process, hearing from your

colleagues, and hearing from the public, and trying to make the

bill the best it can be.

0:22:29

L.C: Okay. There's still a couple that I wanted to ask

you about. One is - you already discussed there a little bit,

the different things that you want to see required on a - the

first original long form birth certificate.

Rep. M.H: Right.

L.C: What is it that you think is necessary about seeing

the name of the hospital and the parents' birthplaces?

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Rep. M.H: Well, because that would be - those would

ultimately be the best evidence of where the person was actually

born.

R.C: Well, I'm going to step in here. I'm going to step

in, Loren, because when Hawaii puts out a document, like they

did for Obama, and puts that state seal on it, what the

representative is saying - that basically, he doesn't trust

those state officials. He doesn't believe them, if - if they

have a state certified document. And by the way, Representative

Hatfield, did you know there is a - the federal government does

define a birth certificate for federal use? And the one Hawaii

issues, and the other short forms, meets that definition. Also,

are you saying you don't trust Hawaii? Is that what you're

saying?

0:23:37

Rep. M.H: Well, no, not at all... but again, you're - you

make assumptions that because a state issues something that's

generated by computer, that - and that we've seen only, you

know, on the internet - that somehow, that that should resolve

all questions. I would submit to you first thing about Hawaii's

certificate of live birth is that we - as we discussed before -

that a person that is not born in Hawaii would be eligible under

Hawaii law, to have his or her birth registered in Hawaii, and -

L.C.: But...

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Rep. M.H: - as a result of that, would be able to obtain a

computer-generated certificate of live birth such as the one

that the President has put up on the web.

R.C: Go ahead, Loren.

L.C: It's true - it's true that in Hawaii someone can

register a birth, but there are - if they're issued a

certification it will not say that they were born in Hawaii.

Hawaii does not issue certification saying 'Born in Hawaii' to

people who were not born in Hawaii.

Rep. M.H: Well, that - that begs the question. I think

that we have - we have yet to see that evidence of what the

actual long form birth certificate says. I'm just - and I'm

just at a loss to - to figure out why? Why not just go ahead

and - even assuming - assuming that what you're saying is

correct, and that Hawaii's position is that that is the correct

birthplace, why not go ahead and put this issue to rest if

you're the President of the United States, and you've got other

things on your agenda that are - that are important, and - and

of worldwide import, why not just go ahead and put this thing to

rest, and just go ahead and release the records that would - you

know - shut all these people up?

(Foggy joins the call.)

FOGGY: This is Foggy here.

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L.C: Well, I - my thought has always been that the

certification is conclusive. It says he was born in Honolulu,

Hawaii, and Hawaii doesn't issue birth certificates saying born

in Honolulu, Hawaii, to people who weren't born in Honolulu.

Rep. M.H: I'm kinda - I'm sorry, I was losing you a little

bit there. I think we had some bleed-over from another line.

Could you repeat that?

0:25:47

FOGGY: Yeah, I joined the conversation because - because

the State of Hawaii has made it very clear that this is the only

birth certificate they give out.

They actually have a program where, if you're more than 50%

native Hawaiian - I mean ethnic Hawaiian - that you get some

special privileges from the government of Hawaii, and the

website that describes that program says that if you have one of

the old birth certificates that - you know - like, like a long

form birth certificate, that they'd prefer to see that if you

still have one, but if you don't have that and you want to get a

birth certificate from the state of Hawaii, the only birth

certificate they're going to give out, is the short form

abstract that the state of Hawaii gives out.

Rep. M.H: Sure, and, and...

FOGGY: President Obama - unless you think President Obama

is above the law in Hawaii, it - the only birth certificate that

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he can get, is the short form birth certificate that he got.

And of course if you've seen the photographs from factcheck.org,

that's a certified birth certificate, with a raised seal, and

the signature of the registrar, and it satisfies all federal

requirements to get a birth certificate and to prove where you

were born.

Rep. M.H: Well...

FOGGY: I don't understand - I don't understand what you

mean by saying why doesn't he put this to rest. He put it to

rest. He's shown an official - an official birth certificate

from the state of Hawaii. That's the only birth certificate

Hawaii gives out. The other comment I have is, you say that if

you were not born in Hawaii, that you can get a Hawaiian

certification of live birth. Birthers have been saying that for

two years now.

Not one of them has ever been able to obtain a birth

certificate saying that they were born in Hawaii, if they

weren't born in Hawaii. If that's true, why doesn't somebody

who wasn't born in Hawaii show us that that's true, by getting a

birth certificate?

0:27:45

Rep. M.H: Well, R.C., could I respond to that? Those

comments?

R.C: Yes.

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Rep. M.H: I'm sorry - who - who are we speaking with here?

R.C: This is Foggy.

Rep. M.H: Okay. Well - a couple of things there. You

know, you - you're making again assumptions about - about the

certificate of live birth, that I think that - to me, you know,

I'm not - I'm not willing to say something that's been put up on

the internet, that - you know - is not in the hands of some

public official, for example, right here in Georgia, of our

secretary of state, I'm not willing to just - to accept that an

internet image, in the absence of some hard proof - that is -

something that's tangible, that a public official can look at.

And - you know - you may not be in agreement with that, but I

think that, again, we're not talking about - you know - we're

not talking about a city councilman, we're not talking about

even a governor, we're talking about the presidency.

The other thing that I wanted to point out is that,

assuming that what you're saying is all correct about the

Hawaiian certificate of live birth, nevertheless, there's

nothing that is restricting the President from releasing other

records that would include - you know - birth records, that

would include medical records, it would include passport

documentation, college records, things of this nature, and...

(Someone interjects.)

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Rep. M.H: I'm sorry, but just let me finish this thought.

Whether or not that you agree with the fact that this has become

a national issue, the fact of the matter is, that it is a

national issue, and, you know we had a recent poll that came out

- I think R.C. indicated that it was from CNN. I'm not sure if

it was CNN or if it was an NPR poll, but it showed that 51% of

Republicans think - or have concerns about this issue. You may

not be a Republican, you may not vote Republican, but you've got

to admit that - the Republican Party is obviously a sizeable

chunk of this nation's voters, and if you've got more than half

of the Republican Party saying this is an issue, I think it

deserves some national attention.

0:30:09

LC: If I could go back to the, you know, the actual

language of the bill and what it requires the candidates to

provide, I actually some time back, not recently, but I picked

up from the post office an application for a U.S. passport, and

in the passport application it says that if you're born in the

United States you have to provide a certified birth certificate,

and that birth certificate shall include your full name, full

name of your parents, date and place of birth, sex, date the

birth record was filed, and the seal of the official custodian,

and that's what's contained on a Hawaiian certification of live

birth. It's also the same information as what you would get if

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you get a certification of birth from the state of Georgia.

Georgia will issue both, you know, a certified copy of the

original, but I also have here from 1997, they issued me a, sort

of almost identical to Obama's

MR. HATFIELD: I agree with you there. I don't have any

doubt about that.

LC: Yes, so my point is that since this is the standard

that the federal government uses to issue passports to U.S.

citizens, why is any additional information necessary for the

state of Georgia to put someone on a ballot?

MR. HATFIELD: Well, I think that's a good question, and I

think I've got a good answer for you, and that is that we're

talking about a passport right here, we're talking about

citizenship, but the constitution distinguishes between

citizenship and natural born citizenship, and as you know, under

law in the United States, if you're born on American soil you

are a citizen of the United States, there's no doubt about that,

but the constitution says natural born citizen, which is a

heightened requirement from that of just normal citizenship, and

I think it's reasonable to conclude that it requires more than

just simply being born on the soil, and that's why the issue

that's why I'm concerned about the issue of the parents'

birthplaces and the citizenship of the parents.

LC: And what more is it that you think it requires?

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MR. HATFIELD: Well, you know, you and I have had, I guess,

a little back and forth on this in the AJC and in our emails,

but I believe that a person who holds dual or multiple

citizenship and this is just my belief I believe that the

founders never intended for such a person to hold the office of

the presidency, and there and I'll be the first to say that

there are conflicting lines of authority on that issue and there

are conflicting lines of legal thought on that, but the

significant thing to me is that we have some we have

scholarship from, that was around the time that the constitution

was written in the time of the founders that for example, the

Vattel's Law of Nations, that talks about natural born

citizenship being a unity of being born on the soil, having two

parents who are citizens, and having a unity of allegiance to

that nation.

And then we've got other anecdotal evidence. I mentioned

to R.C. last night that the presidential campaign of Charles

Evans Hughes in 1916, he ran against Woodrow Wilson, and Charles

Evans Hughes was born in the United States, but his father had

not yet naturalized at the time of his birth and therefore was

still a British citizen, and so Hughes

LC: And he was the Republican nominee, and he won 48

percent of the electoral vote.

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MR. HATFIELD: That's correct. He lost the election

overall, and so we don't have we don't really have a

conclusive answer to what would have happened had he been

elected, but what I was going to point out was that a gentleman

named Breckinridge Long if I could just finish this thought,

and then I'll

LC: Okay, go ahead.

MR. HATFIELD: But a gentleman named Breckinridge Long, who

was an attorney and a legal scholar and then subsequently served

as secretary of state and the U.S. Ambassador to Italy, he wrote

an article in the Chicago Legal News during the presidential

election campaign in 1916 questioning the natural born

citizenship of Charles Evans Hughes, and so my point in saying

that is this is not an issue that's just come up with our

current president. This is an issue that has been around for a

long time.

We know that President Chester Arthur back in the 1800s had

issues regarding eligibility. At least posthumously they were

raised. Charles Evans Hughes, we had George Romney in 1968

running for the Republican party nomination and having been born

in Mexico. We had John McCain. And so this is not an issue

that just came up yesterday.

0:35:14

FOGGY: But none of those people was ever disqualified.

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MR. HATFIELD: I understand that, but that's

FOGGY: In fact, you're a Republican, aren't you?

MR. HATFIELD: I would argue that that was due to the fact

that I'm sorry, go ahead.

FOGGY: The very first nominee of the Republican party in

the election of 1856 do you know that was the first time the

Republican party ran a candidate was in 1856? His name was John

Charles Fremont. He was a really famous guy. He was called The

Pathfinder, because he explored the southwest United States, and

his father was a Frenchman who never did naturalize as an

American citizen, and he was the nominee of the Republican

party.

Now this was before the Civil War. This was before the

14th amendment. This was just a few years after the

constitution was enacted. His opponent in the Republican party

was John McLean who was a justice of the Supreme Court. So you

would think that if having a French father and having dual

citizenship was disqualifying, you would think that John McLean

would have brought up the fact that John Charles Fremont had a

father who was not a citizen of the United States. So even

before the 14th amendment stated that anybody who's born in the

United States immediately becomes a citizen of the United

States, the Republic party thought that having a French father,

having a dual citizenship, was not disqualifying.

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MR. HATFIELD: Well, you know, as I've said, there's

anecdotal evidence going both ways on this issue, and I'll be

the first to tell you I don't discount that, and I think, you

know, these are valid observations. But what I'm pointing out

is there are examples going both ways, and it shows to me and

suggests to me that there's a flaw in the system, because

Congress has never acted to tell us what natural born citizens

means, and the Supreme Court of the United States has never told

us, given us an opinion squarely on point.

LC: If I I'm going to change subjects here a bit if I

could, wanted to ask something slightly different. The bill, of

course, is just limited to the president and the vice president.

I was looking for the code section earlier, couldn't stumble

across it. I believe to serve in the Georgia House you have to

be a U.S. citizen.

MR. HATFIELD: No, I'm not aware of any U.S. citizenship

requirement. Now, I wouldn't tell you you're wrong on that, but

I haven't looked at that issue. But I wouldn't argue the point.

I mean, I think you should be a U.S. citizen. If it's not

required, you should be.

RC: Hey, Loren, let me step in here. I want to bring on

Kyrsten Sinema. She's my second guest of the evening. We're

running a little long. I know it's a great discussion.

Kyrsten, can you hear me okay? This is R.C.

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MS. SINEMA: Yes, I can hear you just fine. I actually

have an answer to the question that was just posed to Mr.

Hatfield. Now, I'm a senator in Arizona and not in Georgia, but

I do know the rules in Georgia, and you indeed do have to be a

United States citizen to be an elected official in the state of

Georgia, because you have to be qualified to vote, and as we

know, only U.S. citizens are qualified to vote. So while Mr.

Hatfield may not know the answer to that, it's pretty clear, and

it's spelled out pretty clearly in Georgia statute.

LC: I actually just managed to pull this up.

Members of the Georgia House must be citizens of the U.S.,

at least 21 years old, a Georgia citizen for at least two years,

and a legal resident of the district they are running in for at

least one year.

MR. HATFIELD: Right, but you know, I meet all those

requirements and to my knowledge, you know, the other members of

the House do, but we're not talking about citizenship issues

here with regard to the presidency. We're talking about natural

born citizenship.

LC: I do understand. My question was, however, what

documentation did you or the other members of the House have to

produce to show that you are in fact U.S. citizens?

MR. HATFIELD: Well, we had to sign an affidavit showing

that we met the requirements of the office, and I don't have

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that affidavit before me, but I'm sure that whatever

requirements are specifically set out in the code are reflected

in the affidavits that we sign.

MS. SINEMA: I just want to note

LC: [inaudible]

MR. HATFIELD: I can't hear you both, I'm sorry.

MS. SINEMA: Well, this is Kyrsten from Arizona. I just

want to note for the record that's exactly the same kind of

affidavit that any candidate for president has to sign in each

of the states in which that person wants to be on the ballot.

So what Mr. Hatfield is proposing is a different standard for

people who run for one office than run for another office.

MR. HATFIELD: No, that's not my proposal. That's in the

United States Constitution that you have to be a natural born

citizen.

0:40:05

MS. SINEMA: What I'm saying, sir, is that your proposition

requires people to show proof of that, whereas to run for

Georgia representative or senator, all you have to do is sign an

affidavit. You don't have to provide a birth certificate. You

don't have to prove it.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, you know, again, it's a big leap

between being a Georgia state representative or a Georgia state

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senator and being the President of the United States, and I

would think that you would acknowledge that.

LC: Well, in my district

MS. SINEMA: I do acknowledge that, but what I certainly

wouldn't say is that we can hold some people to one standard and

people to another standard. If you're going to serve as an

elected official in any office in this country, you have to be a

United States citizen, and I think it's a violation of equal

protection to provide different rules for some people than for

other people. Everyone should

MR. HATFIELD: Well, that's patently absurd. That's

patently absurd. I mean, you're talking about the President of

the United States. You're talking about constitutional

requirements. This is an equal protection issue. I mean, we're

not talking about the government depriving a citizen of some

civil right here. I mean, we're talking about who's going to be

the leader of the free world. Give me a break.

MS. SINEMA: So I just want to be clear that, Mr. Hatfield,

you're saying then that it's okay to require other people to

show their proof of citizenship but not you?

MR. HATFIELD: No, I'd be glad to show you mine. If you

want to come over here to Georgia, I'll be glad to show you my

birth certificate. I could put it up online, too, if that would

satisfy you.

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But, you know, this isn't about my birth certificate, this

is about and this is not about my citizenship, although I can

gladly produce for you any evidence you need to see that I'm a

citizen, but this is about the person who occupies the highest

office in the land. That's different.

MS. SINEMA: Well, and as we know, our current President,

as well as every president before them, has also provided proof

of their own citizenship as well. I heard you mention that

there was a question about our own Senator John McCain. Now,

I'm from Arizona, and I want to be clear, I'm not a supporter of

John McCain's, but to imply

MR. HATFIELD: That doesn't surprise me.

MS. SINEMA: - right, but to imply or to question that he

is not a natural born citizen or that he doesn't have the

qualifications to run for the president is not true and also

offensive as an Arizonan.

MR. HATFIELD: I didn't excuse me, I didn't imply that at

all. I said that there were eligibility issues raised with

regard to John McCain who was born in the Panama Canal Zone.

Now, I'm not you know, you can try to rewrite history if you'd

like to, but the fact is the question was raised. You gotta

deal with it, okay? That's just how it was.

MS. SINEMA: Well, he was born in the Panama Canal Zone on

a military base to military soldiers who were bravely serving

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our country. So to imply that he or to question whether or

not he's a natural born citizen somehow says that the children

of soldiers who are serving on bases overseas don't have the

same rights to citizenship as you or I do, and that it just

patently unfair.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, first of all, I have not said that. I

am telling you that the issue about John McCain's eligibility

was raised. In fact, Barack Obama was a supporter of a

resolution in the United States Senate to declare John McCain

eligible.

So, I mean, let's get real here. What we're talking about

is we're talking about the highest office in the land, and you

can try to make this about a city council or you can try to make

it about a state representative or a state senator all you want,

but the fact of the matter is is the constitution's got higher

requirements for the United States president, and that is

something that you cannot get away from, no matter how much you

might try.

MS. SINEMA: And you know what, that is an important issue

SPEAKER: Well, Representative Hatfield, how does a

baptismal certificate how does a baptismal certificate or a

school record do a better job of establishing the president's

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eligibility than a certified copy of a vital record from their

place of birth?

MR. HATFIELD: I'm not saying it necessarily does

SPEAKER: But that's what your bill says

MR. HATFIELD: - but what I'm telling you is that we should

have a requirement I believe in a requirement that original

documentation be produced. This stuff about producing a

computer-generated summary, to me, is simply that's

insufficient. We're talking about somebody who's spending

millions and millions of dollars to run for the highest office

in the land. Are you telling me they can't go out and spend $20

to get a birth certificate in order to show that they meet

natural born citizenship requirements? Get real.

MS. SINEMA: You know what I think is important here is the

underlying

MR. HATFIELD: You guys are triple-teaming me here on this,

too.

RC: Wait a minute, hold on.

MR. HATFIELD: I may have to tag team on you. Let's keep

it fair.

RC: I am, I'm going to mute some of the callers here.

We're going to go one at a time. It is getting a little bit to

be a bit of a zoo here.

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I want to step in this is R.C. and go back and ask a

question. You've talked about how there's this big controversy

over President Obama. First of all, were you a representative

in 2006?

MR. HATFIELD: Yes, I was.

RC: Okay, did you bring forth a bill in 2006 to make sure

that George Bush or actually 2004, let's go back to 2004.

MR. HATFIELD: I was elected in 2004. I took office in

January 2005.

RC: Okay, so you took office the same time George Bush was

sworn in for his second term, and you had no concern did you

have any concerns then about George Bush or Bill Clinton or any

of the preceding presidents? Was this an issue?

MR. HATFIELD: To be honest, I mean, I'll be perfectly

honest with you, no, it wasn't on my radar screen at the time,

but you know, I'm just like everyone else out in the world that

when something becomes a national issue I pay attention to it,

just like you apparently are doing by talking about the issue on

your radio show.

RC: Yeah, and I do it in kind of a mocking kind of way,

because

MR. HATFIELD: I noticed that. I noticed that.

RC: Yeah, you noticed that, huh?

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MR. HATFIELD: But, you know, I think that is unfair that

because you automatically attack somebody as being, you know,

crazy or obsessed or something like this just because a question

is asked, but there are people people here in this country,

many people feel more deeply about our constitution and our

heritage than to simply just be brushed off like that.

RC: Then I'd

MS. SINEMA: You know, this is Kyrsten, I just want to say

that what I have some concern about is the idea that Mr.

Hatfield said this became a national issue. What this became

was a strategy by a few people on the radical right to question

the fitness and the qualifications of one candidate for

president, and it became an internet rumor. Now, there are a

lot of internet rumors out there, but to say that those internet

rumors are, quote, national issues, is, no offense, absurd.

That's absurd. This was just a small group of people saying

crazy stuff on the internet.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, when Chris Mathews, when Chris

Mathews, who is the darling of the left, gets on national TV and

he says, hey, the President should release his birth certificate

and put an end to the issue, come on, you can't make it about

crazy conservatives and extreme radical right wingers. Chris

Mathews is about as leftwing as they come, and he's saying, hey,

it's an issue.

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MS. SINEMA: Well, to be honest with you, I don't think

that's all that he said, if you would certainly take some time

and go back

MR. HATFIELD: I know he said that he felt a tingle running

up his leg when he saw Obama, I know that.

RC: Well, Kyrsten, I just want to step in and finish my

thought.

MS. SINEMA: Go right ahead.

RC: I don't think there's one I think this is an issue

in places like World Net Daily, all the birther sites, the

antibirther sites, of which I'm a member and mock you know, we

mock the birthers, but we also take them seriously, because some

of this birther movement represents some people who are

dangerous. There are sovereign citizens people, there are

people that have some really crazy ideas who are allied with

these birthers, and that's a whole nother subject.

MR. HATFIELD: R.C., there's extremists on all sides. You

know that and I know that, I mean, but you know I don't buy into

these things like sovereign citizens and all that. I'm just a

guy who believes that our constitution ought to be respected.

MIMI: Hello, this is Mimi.

RC: Yeah, go ahead, Mimi. I was going to pick you up.

MIMI: I have a quick question. I heard Representative

Hatfield on the Ed Show, and he said that there were cryptic

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statements coming from the state of Hawaii, and I looked up that

statement and what Dr. Fukino said was: I have seen the

original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State

Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in

Hawaii and is a natural born American citizen. And I wondered

what part of that was cryptic.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, you know, I believe that when you have

a public official that's coming out and making statements about

something that's supposedly a sealed record not open for public

inspection and not to be revealed to the public without the

permission of the individual whose records those are, that

certainly raises some questions and causes me to have some

pause, but then you have the governor of Hawaii that comes in.

He tells us he's going to put an end to all this. He's going to

show the birth certificate. He's going to bring it out. And

then all of a sudden, that's the end of the issue.

MIMI: Well, he didn't exactly say that.

MR. HATFIELD: To me, you know, those are cryptic

statements. It's quite a mystery to me.

MIMI: Born in Hawaii is cryptic? Actually, the governor

didn't say that.

MR. HATFIELD: Were you there when he was born in Hawaii in

1961? Were you there? I wasn't.

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MIMI: What she said was that she has looked at the

records, and she verified that he was born in Hawaii, yes, but

Governor Abercrombie, what he wanted to do was release other

records that would verify, but not the birth certificate itself,

but he found that he couldn't do that.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, the bottom line is he didn't release

anything. He didn't release anything. The only thing I know

that came out of him was that he said there was some sort of

notation in the files. You know, what in the world is that? A

notation in the files.

MIMI: Well, we've actually, the birthers have verified

that the index data showed that he was born as well. In trying

to find something, they actually debunked their own, and they

used to say that Maya had a certificate of live birth, but what

they actually did was debunked their own lie.

0:50:58

MR. HATFIELD: Well, you know, I can't speak for what

somebody else brought up. I have no idea about Maya, and I

don't know where her what her involvement in it is. But I

haven't said that. That's not a contention I've made it. I

can't speak to that.

MS. SINEMA: Can I this is Senator Sinema.

RC: Yeah, Kyrsten, go ahead.

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MS. SINEMA: I just want to say one thing. I just have to

remark on the fact that we are all having a conversation on live

radio about whether or not the president of the free world, the

leader of the free world, whether or not he was born in Hawaii,

and there is absolutely zero evidence

MR. HATFIELD: That's not what we're having a conversation

about. We're having a conversation about why he won't release

his records. That's what we're having a conversation about.

MS. SINEMA: Okay. So then my question is, Mr. Hatfield,

why do you so desperately need to see his records? Because

there is zero zero evidence that he was born anywhere other

than Hawaii. And I have to just say that we are facing critical

times in our country. Your state is in a recession. My state

is in a recession. We are trying to recover from the worst

recession in either of our lifetimes. Our schools are

struggling. We have major budget deficits. And I just want to

note for the record that we're having a debate about whether or

not Barack Obama's birth certificate is from Hawaii. And I just

have to say that I feel like we're having

MR. HATFIELD: That's not what we're having a debate about,

but again, I'll go back to my bill, my bill in its current form,

doesn't even apply to Barack Obama. It would become effective

on July 1, 2013. Now, you tell me what objection that you have

to if that is not an issue with regard to Mr. Obama and the

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state of Hawaii, then what objection do you have to requiring a

candidate to comply with the constitution?

LC: Okay, can I pick up again? Am I on the air?

MS. SINEMA: Well, quite simply, quite simply this, that

individuals who choose to run for the United States presidency

already have to file forms with the Federal Elections Commission

and with each state in which they choose to run, and those forms

are notarized, signed affidavits in which they attest that they

are natural born citizens, are at least 35 years old, and

obviously have the right to vote. And so it seems to me as if

we're having a big conversation about something that, to be

quite honest with you, doesn't matter at all. It doesn't

matter.

MR. HATFIELD: Correct me if I'm wrong, correct me if I'm

wrong, but I don't think that the candidates themselves sign

anything like that. I think that that is certified by their

party leadership, and that is provided to the states.

MS. SINEMA: And the Federal Elections Commission is

responsible for reviewing not only the affidavits from each

state but also the candidates' own forms. As we know, each

MR. HATFIELD: The Federal Elections Commission is not

there it has never been and is not now a body that is tasked

with overseeing that candidates meet eligibility requirements.

If you know anything about the law, you know that that is true.

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MS. SINEMA: Well, Mr. Hatfield, with all due respect, I'm

a constitutional attorney, so I know the law very, very well.

MR. HATFIELD: I'm a constitutional attorney, too. How

about that?

MS. SINEMA: Oh, you are? I'm sorry, I was not aware that

you are an attorney, Mr. Hatfield.

MR. HATFIELD: I am. How about that?

MS. SINEMA: Well, that's great news.

The problem with your legislation, quite simply, is this,

that it is based on a faulty premise that our current president

and, as you've argued, prior presidential candidates had

questionable status as American citizens, and that, quite

frankly, is an issue that was arisen by a very, very small

rightwing, very narrow group of people in our country, who were

upset about the individual who was running for president,

whether it be John McCain or Barack Obama, and what I would like

to posit to all of us this evening is that each of us, each of

us, every single one of us, would do our state and our country

proud by letting go of this frankly ridiculous issue and instead

working to solve the very real problems that we face every day

in our states and in our country, because this is not a problem.

This is not a problem. We do not have a problem in our country

of having individuals run for president who are not qualified to

be president. We don't.

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MR. HATFIELD: Senator, I respect your opinion, and I

respect your right to your opinion. I hope you would respect my

opinion and my right to my opinion, and you know, that's a

wonderful thing about living in the United States of America is

that we have the freedom to have our own opinions and to work to

further our beliefs as we see them to fit under the United

States constitution, and I do have respect for your opinion, and

I appreciate the dialogue, but I think we have to, at the end of

the evening, we have to agree to disagree on this issue, and you

know, I've enjoyed the debate.

0:55:58

MS. SINEMA: Well, I think that's fair enough. Well said.

MR. HATFIELD: Thank you.

RC: Okay, Representative Hatfield, I know you have stayed

twice as long as you intended, and I really appreciate it.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, I've enjoyed the debate, R.C.

RC: I'm sorry that I had four or five callers on there. I

didn't really intend for it to get that boisterous here, but

we've got it under

MR. HATFIELD: Next time maybe you'll let me have a few

extras, but I really have enjoyed the debate, and appreciate you

having me on.

RC: Oh, you're welcome back any time, and you do have some

supporters over there in the chat room that goes with the show.

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It's quite lively, and there are few I have a fellow who's in

there every week, you know, on the other side of the spectrum,

and I only kicked him out once, because I got a little miffed at

him one night, but I let him have his say every week, and we

have a lively debate.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, you know, I really think it's

important that, you know, even though that you and I may

disagree on the issue, it's important that we have the

conversation, and I appreciate you making that available to your

listeners.

LC: Would I be able to say one thing with Representative

Hatfield still on the air? Am I on the air?

RC: Yeah, go ahead, Loren.

LC: Okay, excellent. Representative Hatfield, when you

tried taking it back to the bill a minute ago, I wanted to jump

in. I've told people before, you know, despite what I've said,

despite what I've written, I'm not actually inherently opposed

to such a documentation bill, to be honest. As I detailed

before, there were some problems, some serious problems that I

saw with the bill. You've addressed a lot of them.

The two big ones I still see specifically with the bill are

the privacy issues for making the records public, and I think

your bill could avoid potential litigation and potential

problems if you defined birth certificate simply the way the

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U.S. State Department does for passports. I think that would

solve the two major problems still as I see them with the bill.

The other thing, as I started to go down the line of

talking about earlier and then other people joined and we got

sidetracked, part of the reason I brought up the Georgia House

is that I live in District 80, Mike Jacobs' district. I've

voted for Mike Jacobs every time since I've lived here.

MR. HATFIELD: Mike's a good guy.

LC: Yeah, he was ahead of me in Georgia by a few years.

MR. HATFIELD: Right, and we have that in common, Loren, as

you and I both went to Georgia.

LC: Exactly, sir, and you may recall it was a little more

than two years ago when the it turned out that the Democrat

who was running here against Mike somewhat at the last minute

found out that he was not eligible, Keith Gross. Did you recall

that?

MR. HATFIELD: I remember something about that, but you

know, I live in southeast Georgia, and so we're not in the same

areas of the state. So it's hard for me to keep up with that.

LC: Oh, I understand. Precisely, it was a localized

issue. It turned out that Mr. Gross did not meet the residency

requirements here. He, I think, living up north, still had tax

and voter registration up north, and someone figured this out

within the timeframe they could object to it, I think because

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someone spotted like other state license plates on his car, if I

remember correctly, and he found out, not to be eligible. A few

years before that, Max Barber got tossed off a Public Service

Commission ballot against Bubba McDonald [phonetic] for also not

meeting the residency requirement.

MR. HATFIELD: Right.

LC: And so the way I see it and there was a challenge a

few months ago I forget if it was for the Supreme Court of

Appeals for one of the judges, who didn't meet the bar

requirements, and she was eventually found to be eligible. But

in other words, in the last decade, the two most notable

challenges we've had to eligibility here in the state, which

proved to be successful challenges, were on local ballots, the

PSC being statewide, District 80 being local. And local races,

as I see it I mean, when you're talking about a billion dollar

presidential race, these are candidates who have massive

opposition research. If they have elibility issues, they'll

discover it, more likely than in a House race or a PSC race,

many of which are going to be unopposed, frankly, and then no

one's doing opposition research.

And therefore, I think it's as Keith and Max demonstrate

that is frankly where we probably need a documentation

standard more than we need on the presidential level.

1:00:16

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MR. HATFIELD: I certainly wouldn't have any problem with

it. I think that anybody that's seeking to hold an office,

whether you are at the national level or if you're even at the

local level, you should be you should expect to be asked to

meet a higher standard and to make sure that you are satisfy

all the requirements. So I wouldn't have any problem with that

at all.

LC: Yes, and I think that's one of the ways that the bill

could be improved is to, you know, instead of making it appear

that it's simply targeting just the presidency, make it also

apply to our other federal officers.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, that would be a fine idea except for

one thing. In the Georgia constitution, we are prohibited from

passing a bill that has more than one subject matter, and I fear

that we would violate the constitution's single subject matter

requirement the Georgia constitution's if we were to take up

a wholly different set of offices with regard to that. Now, you

know, if we got a legal opinion from legislative counsel or

otherwise, I mean, I'd be all for that. I don't have any

problem with it. As I said, I mean, I'd be prepared to share my

birth certificate if anyone wants to see it, and be glad to, but

I won't have any problem with that, and I think that it's not

unreasonable to ask for it.

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LC: So if they have to be separate bills then so be it,

but like I said, I think that's where the need is here in

Georgia.

And to be honest, I've seen in other states that there are

some other states oh, that was the other thing I was going to

say. Quite frankly, I think the problem here in Georgia isn't

that we're letting too many people on the presidential ballot;

it's that we're letting too few. You know, Georgia has, quite

frankly, the strictest ballot access laws in the nation.

MR. HATFIELD: I agree with you there, and I don't know if

you've looked at this, but a couple years ago I cosponsored a

bill along with Representative Alan Powell and some others to

ease those ballot access requirements. I do believe that we

should be more willing to allow third party candidates,

independent candidates, et cetera, to get on the ballot. So I'm

all for that.

LC: Yes, and thank you for that. I hope you resubmit such

a bill and it gets more support.

But, yeah, like I said earlier, the two things I named

earlier, the privacy, the definition of a birth certificate, I

think those are quite frankly going to be obstacles to your bill

going forward. I think fix those, and it would stand a much

better chance of passing, would stand a better chance of

surviving a challenge.

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MR. HATFIELD: Well, I think that you know, I'm not going

to make any predictions about whether or not the bill passes.

There's you know, we're certainly at a point in the

legislative session where there's a lot of major issues out

there, and frankly, I think the, somewhat the media spotlight

that's been put on this attention probably has caused some

people to get cold feet over it, certainly not me, but you know,

whether or not that it goes forward it remains to be seen, but I

think you have some good suggestions and I think that you're

certainly right on target with ballot access as an issue in

Georgia, and I will continue to pursue that issue into the

future.

LC: Well, thank you for that.

MR. HATFIELD: All right.

RC: Okay, Representative Hatfield, I'll give you a chance,

if you have to leave, I'll certainly give you a chance to take

off here. You're also welcome to stay, because I have three or

four other callers who have their hands raised and would love to

talk to you. So it's up to you.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, we've been at it for about an hour

now, and I do have some preparation to do for we're going into

session at 9:30 in the morning again, and so I've got some

review of the bills that are coming up for tomorrow to do and