IX DIE H00GGEREG5H0F VAX SUID-AFRIKA

(TRAN5VAAL5E PROVIX5IALE AFDELIXG)

5AAKXOMMER: CC k±2/±

IC

DEL>US

1986-C4-2

DIE STAAT t e e n : PATRICK MABUYA BALEKA EN 2 1

.AXDER

VOOR: EDELE REGTER VAX DIJXHORST EN

AS5ESSORE: MXR. W.F. KR'JGEL

PROF. V.A. JOl'BERT

N'A.MEN'5 DIE 5TAAT:

X.AMENS DIE VERDEDIGIXG

TOLK:

ADV ..ADV.

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ADV.

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MXR.

P.P.

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3. JACOBSFICK

BAXEKOM

CHASKAL5ON

3IZOS

TIP

M. YACOOB

•J. MARCUS

5.X. SKOSAXA

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PLEIT: XL DIE BESKULDIGDES: OX5KULDIG

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VOLUME '5

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£226 - 3861 - IK CAKERA

HOF HERVAT OP 29 APRIL 1966.

MKR. TICK : Die Staat wil to getuie roep. Die Staat wi l vra

dat h i e r d i e ge tu ie Be getu ienie in camera gehoor word. £k

•vra dat d ie Hof v i r d i e doel ontrulm word.

EOF : Om t e b e s l u i t of h i e rd i e getuie ee getuienie i n camera

aangehoor s a l word, word die hofeaal ontruim dear d i e publiek

en d i t geld v i r die pere ook.

HOFSAAL WORD OFTRUIK.

EOF VERSOEK GETUIE OK SY KAAK OP *K PAPIER TE SERTF.

EOF : Wat i s d ie rede v i r u aansoek? (10)

KNR. FICE : Die g e t u i e net versoek om in camera t e ge tu ig .

Sy i s minder jar ig . Sy i s 17 jaar oud. Sy i s to l i d van to orga-

n ieae ie in Tumahole, bekend as Tumabole Students1 Organisation

wat l a t e r Tumahole Youth Congress geword be t . Sy het ak t ie f

deelgeneem a an die gebeure daar in die Vaal. Sy gaan as fiy

hier k laar ge tu ig he t terug na daardie gemeenskap t o e . Sy het

aangedui dat ey vrees v i r haar lewe as ey ge lden t i f i see r word.

MR BIZOS : We object t o t h i s evidence being given i n camera.

COURT : Tour reasons?

KR BIZOS : The general reasons, which I do not want t o (20)

repeat at length, that i t is important for us to investigate

the allegations that are to be made by the witness and that

we would not be able to do thie properly if her identity not

made public. People come forward, as has been indicated often

in this t r i a l with vital information as a result of what wit-

nesses are Baying. She herself has apparently taken part in

these activities, and presumably is known as one of the persons

that took part in these activities and I submit with the

greatest respect that on the say so that she fears, Tour Lord-

ship will not allow that. She has taken part in the public(30)

life openly presumably, attended meetings on what we have

. • . / understood

K226.01 - 3862 - IK CAMERA

understood and there l e no reason for extending t h i e protec t ion

that she l e a6kIng f o r . Ve can only Inves t iga te what she eaye

I f - what I have t e e n g i v e n t o understand l e that she w i l l

speak In the main what has happened where a great number of

people were present . We can only i n v e s t i g a t e that by going

t o the other people who were present in order t o find out

whether she has t o l d ue the truth or not and I do not know,

with the g r e a t e s t r e s p e c t , what protect ion the order w i l l in

effect afford to the witness .

HO? : Ek wil u fc paar vrae vra. Hoe oud i s u? (10)

IC.10 : 17.

HOF : Kog op skool?

IC.1G : Ja.

HOP : Die advokaat v i r die Staat het my meegedeel dat u in

camera wi l getuig?

IC.10 : Ja.

HOF : Vat i s die rede daarvoor?

IC.10 : Bk i s bang, want ek i s betrokke in die organisasie

van hierdle mensef dat as ek hier getuig, sal hulle my dood-

maak. (20)

HOF : Vie i s hierdie mense?

IC.10 : Van die mense wat gaan lu i s t er na die getuienis.

HOF : Vat i s die naam van die organisasie?

IC.10 : Tumahole Youth Congress.

HGF : Vaar i s d i t vandaan? Is d i t van Vryburg?

IC.10 : Parys.

HOF : Hoekom i s jy bang dat hulle jou s a l doodmaak?

IC.10 : As ek getuig e a l hulle my doodmaak.

HOF : Vas daar a l dreigemente in jou omgeving gewees?

IC.10 : Vatter omgewing? (30)

HOF : Daar waar Jy i s , was daar a l eprake geweeB van doodmaak

• . • / van

K226.O5 - 3863 - IN CAMERAr

van cense of hoekon: B% jy dat Jy dink dat hull© Jou sal dood-

maak?

IC.10 : Ja, hul le praat daarvan dat eekere mense gedood sal

word ae hulle getulg en In d ie algemeen.

. . . / UITSPRAAK

K226.06 - 3864 - PITSPRAAI (IC.10)

U H S P R H E

UITSFRAAK GESTUUR YIR EASIEN

X228.07 - 3865 - IC.lQ

KKH. FICE : Eierdie getule sal getuig oor paragraaf 66 van

die ekte -van beskuldiging. Bit is bladsy 267 en verder asook

paragraaf 79 van die beeonderhedef ekekuus pagina 79 van die

beeonderhede.

EOF : Die pers kan toegelaat word om teenvoordig te wees op

die bestaande voorvaardes.

KNH. FICE : Die Staat wil dan ook die hof vra om hierdie getuie

te vaarsku in terme van art ike 1 204 op die aanklagte BOOS in

die ekte van beskuldiging vervat,

EOF : Al die aanklagte? (10)

KK?:. FICK : Al die aanklagte.

IK CA?IBRA GETUIE KR. 10. v.o.e. (Deur tolk)

EOF : U sal nou in hierdie saak bekendstaan as getuie nr. 10.

U naam sal nie bekendgemaak word nie. Die beskuldigdes staan

tereg op verskillende aanklagte. Dit 1B hoogverraad en terro-

risme en op ander aanklagte. Die Staat beweer dat die getuie-

nle wat u sal gee u aoontlik msg inkrimineer op een of meer

van die aanklagte. V is verplig om die vrae wat aan u gestel

word eerlik en volledig te beantwoord, ten spyte van die feit

dat die antwoord u mag inkrimineer. Indien u getuienis (2G)

bevredigend is in hierdie saak. bet ek die bevoegdheid om u

kvyt te skeld van vervolging op die aanklagte. Ek sal ook

daardie bevoegdheid in u guns uitoefen. U word gevolgllk

gevaarsku dat u die vaarheid moet praat en dat u verplig is

OIL die vrae te beantwoord.

OSDSRVRAGING DEOR KNR. FICK : U is woonagtig te Tumahole?

— Ja.

U is t skoller by een van die skole in Tumahole? — Ja,

Gedurende Januarie . . . (Hof kom tussenbei)

HOF : 0ns sa l nie die naam van die skool openbaar nie. (30)

KKB. FICE : Gedurende Januarie 1984 was u by die skool gewees

. . . / en

K226.09 - 3866 - IC.1C

en dit was kort pouse gewees? -— Ja.

U i s genader deur persone? — Ja.

tan u die name van die pereone gee? — Ja.

Koem hulle? — Kofolo, Ketsi en Benji.

Vat wou bulle by u gehad het? — Bulle wou gehad bet dat

ek by hierdie organieaeie moet aansluit.

Vat vaa die naam van hierdie organisasie? — TSO.

Dit ves u TSO noem, is dit die afkorting vir die naam? —

Tumahole Students1 Organisation.

Julie noem hozc TSO, T-S-O? — Ja. (10)

Vat het hulle gee§ boekom moet u aansluit?

KR BI2OS : Are these persons alleged to be co-conspirators

in the indictment?

COURT : We do not know where the evidence is leading to. You

can ask that eventually. This may be background evidence.

KR BIZOS_ : I t may be background and I withdraw the objection

i t if i s merely background, but if they are not mentioned as

co-conspirators any statements made by them to this witness

extra-judicially iB not admissible.

COURT : The objection is disallowed. Continue. (20)

MKR. FICK : Wat het hulle ges© waarom moet jy aansluit? —

Hulle het gese1 sodat ek behulpsaam kan wees in hierdie organi-

sasie aangaande die huurgelde en skooldinge wat betrokke i s .

Eet u toe aangesluit by hierdie organisasie? — Ja.

*D Kuk daarna is u genader deur ander persone en genooi

na fc vergadering? — Ja.

Die vergadering, wat se vergadering was dit? Van die

organisasie of van to ander organisa6ie? — Watter vergadering?

Die vergadering vaarheen u uitgenooi was net nadat u lid

geword het? — Dit was van die organisasie. (30)

Vaar was die vergadering gehou? — In die motorhui6 van

. • . / ene

Z228.ll - 3667- IC.10

ene Max Koleko.

Die vergadering was op t Saterdag? — Ja.

Vat het op die vergadering plaasgevind? Vat was bespreek?

— Die spreker daar vas ene Barnard.

Vae hy "n lid van die orgaoieasie TSO? — Ja.

Gaan aan? — In sy toespraak het hy v ir ons geefe aan-

gaande die arreetaeie van Mandela. Hy het die volgende gesfi

vir Kandela om vrygelaat te word van die tronk, moet ons baklei.

Hy het verder gesfe1 one moet baklei byvoorbeeld oor die huur-

gelde O E met die poli6ie te kan baklei en die raadelede. (1C)

EO? : Koet hulle byvoorbeeld oor die huurgelde baklei? — En

OE. met die polisie ook te kan baklei en met die raadslede.

KKH. FICK : U het daarna, die volgende dag, die Sondag, weer

t vergadering bygewoon van hierdie organisasie? — Ja.

'*as dit by dieselfde plek? — Ja.

Vat het julle daar gedoen hierdie Sondag? — Daar het hulle

ons liedere geleer.

Vat is die naan \en die liedere? Ean jy onthou? — Ja,

ek onthou die name van die liedere.

Laat ons hoor? — Senzenina is een van hulle. Die (20)

tweede een is Mandela, Kandela. Die derde een is Oliver Thaitbo.

Die vierde een is Kfcululeku. Die vyfde een is Sizophinda

Sinyode. Dit is al liedere wat ek kan onthou.

Het julle op hierdie vergadering net hierdie liedere

geleer? — Ja.

En julle het daarna gereeld vergader by dieselfde plek

en hierdie liedere geoefen? — Ja.

Voor 7 Julie 1984 toe het julle nog eens fc vergadering

gehou by Max Moleko ee huls? — Ja.

Vat was daar besluit op hierdie vergadering? (30)

HOP : Is dit by die huis of in die garage? — In die garage.

... / MNR. FICK

E226.15 - 3868 - IC.10

MKR. PICK : Vat het Julie besluit op hierdie vergadering? —

OB teen die huurgelde te baklei.

Leat one dlt net duidelik try, vae dit veer fc vergadering

van T30, BOOB julle e8, Tumahole Students1 Organisation of vas

dit to ander organieasie vat vergader het? — Jat dit vae TSO.

Eoe het julle besluit hoe gaan julle baklei oor die huur-

gelde? — Ons Bal met die polisie en met die raadslede baklei.

BCF : As u nou praat van baklei, bedoel u fiaies? — Fieies,

in die eln dat ons hulle huiee met klippe moet bestook en dit

aan die brand steek. (10)

MKR-. TICK : Het julle enige beslulte geneem oor hoe julle die

huiee aan die brand gaan eteek, die huise? —Ja, ons het.

Hoe het julle besluit gaan julle dit aan die brand eteek?

— Ons sal petrolbomme maak.

Eet julle op daardie stadium enige bespreking gevoer van

hoe julle die petrolbomme moet maak? — Ja.

Hoe het julle bespreek, hoe gaan julle dit maak? — Bat

ons nip bottels gaan gebruik as die houere.

HOF : Is dit hierdie klein botteltjies? — Ja. Ons sou die

volgen&e vloeistowwe daarin gooi: so, paraffien, petrol,(2c)

en dan *n etukkie materiaal ook daarby sit. Die stukke mate-

riaal eou ons aan die brand gesteek het en dan hierdie houer

daar ingooi.

MER. FICE : Na die ding vat julle aan die brand wil h§? — Ja.

EOF : Waarom is die Brasso daarby? — Ons skud die inhoud

van die bottel eodat dit goed kan meng en dan gooi ons dit

na die plek toe vat aan die brand gesteek moet vord*

Keng die Brasso dit goed? — Vat gebeur Is dit, ons het

vloeistowe In die bottel en hierdie stuk lap in die bottel.

Ban eteek ons eers die stuk lap aan die brand en dan skud (30)

one die bottel met die inhoud eodat die inhoud kan meng. As

• •. / ons

E226.19 - 3669 - IC.lO

ons dit gooi met die brandende lap, sal dlt die brand veroor-

eaak vaar dlt gaan land,

16 daar to prop op die bottel of nie? — Ja, daar ie to prop

OF.

Vat ee prop? — Die gewone prop vir to bottel wat gebruit

word.

Die gevone drukbierbottelproppie? — Dit 1B die prop vix

hlerdie bottel, die ekroeftipe.

Dit is dus nie to bierbottel nie, dit ie to koeldrankbottel?

— Kee, dit 1B to kwart brandewynbottel. (10)

K£?.. FICK : U se die lap gaan in die bottel in. Hang daar t

stuk van die lap buite die bottel of gaan die hele lap in die

bottel in? — 0ns boor to gat in die dekeel van die bottel om

daardeur die etukkie lap in te druk in die bottel in wat reeds

infcoud net. to Klein Btukkie steek uit bo by hierdie deksel

ee gaatjie. Dit is die etukkie lap wat aan die brand gesteek

word, Dan word die inhoud van die bottel geekud.

Eet julle toe besluit op hierdie vergadering voor 17

Julie wanneer julle hierdie petrolbomme gaan gebruik? — Ja, die

dag wat one gaan baklei. (20)

Kan jy die datum onthou? — Dit is die 17de.

HG? : Van watter maand? — Julie.

19? — Julie 1964.

Mini. FICE : Op hierdie dag, 17 Julie 1984, bet Julie weer

bynekaar gekom? — Ja.

Vaar het Julie bymekaar gekom? — By Max.

Veer in ey motorhuie of waar? — In die motorhuis.

Vas daar enige petrolbomme? — Ja.

Veet u hoe het hulle daar gekom? — Ene Chefoa het dit

daar aangebring. (50)

Vas hy ook to lid van TSO? — Ja, hy is to lid van TSO.

. . . / Het

E226.21 - 3670 - IC.3,0

Het by al die vorige vergaderings bygevoon? — Ja.

Weet u hoeveel petrolbomme vas daar gevees? — Ek kan

nie onthou nie.

Vas dit meer as tien? — Ek skat dit eo, ja, maar ek Is

nie seker nie.

Bet julle enige besluit geneem met betrekking tot hierdie

petrolbomme vat daar vas? — Ek volg nie die vraag nie.

Eet julle besluit vat gaan julle maak met hierdie petrol-

bonffie vat nou bier by julle 1B? — Ja, dat ons gaan brand.

Hoe het julle besluit vaar gaan julle brand en vanneer?(lC)

— Cne het besluit dat die huise van die polisie en raadslede

aan die brand gesteek gaan vord die dag vat ons met hulle

gaan baklei, naamlik 17 Julie.

Dit is die dag vat ons van praat toe die man met die goed

daar aangekon het? — Ja.

Het julle almal - laat ek eere so vra. Het julle toe

hierdie dag levers been gegaan met hierdie petrolbomme? —

Ja, ons het.

Eet julle almal eaam geloop of het julle in groepe opgedeel?

— Ons is in groepe daar veg. (2U)

Eoeveel groepe? Veet u? — Bit vas drie groepe gevees.

Ek kan net nie ee hoeveel getal mense vas in *n groep nie.

Het elke groep petrolbomme gehad of net een groep? — Almal

het gehad.

Jy B€ daar was drie groepe. Die eerste groep, veet u vat

hulle taak vas, vaar moes hulle heengaan met die petrolbomme?

— Hulle moes na die kantoor toe gegaan het.

Vatter kantoor? — Die Munisipale kantoor.

In Tuci£.hole? — Ja.

Is dit nou die Raad ee kantore of die Munieipaliteit (30)

e'n? — Dit is die Raad se kantore.

... / ASSESSOR

K228.23 - 3B71 - IC.10

ASSESSOR (KKR. KRU35L) : Vatter Raad praat one nou van?

KKK. FICI : Eaja jy vir die Hof net aandul vat ee raad is dit.

IB dit die raad vat in beheer is van die adniniBtrasie van

Tunahcle of i3 dit *n ander raad? — Ek praat -van die raad in

beheer van Tunahole.

HOr : Kou veet ek nog nie. Daar is "n ding wat bekend etaan

as die Tovn Council of die City Council vaarop die raadslede

dien en dan is daar *n ander ding vat bekend geetaan net as

die Administration Board. Vatter een van die tvee bedoel u?

— Herhaal dit? Laat die tolk dit vir my herhaal? (Vraag(lO)

vord herhaal) — Die kantoor vat ek van praat i6 die kantoor

vaar ons huurgelde betaal.

MIC?.. FICZ : En die volgende groep, vaar moes hulle heengaan

met hulle petrolbonme? — Ka die raadslede toe.

Vaar by die raadslede? I B dit by hulle huise of op strate?

— Ea die raadslede se huise.

En die derde groep? — EuHe moes na die busse toe gegaan

het, asook die polisiemanne Be huise.

In vatter groep vas u" — Ek vas in die groep vat na die

raadslede se huise toe gegaan net. (20)

Toe julle nou so stapf jou groep en die ander groepe,

toe julle vertrek, bet julle gelyk vertrek in die verskillende

rigtingB vaarin julle moes gaan of bet julle apart vertrek?

— Die groepe net gelyktydig daardie plek verlaat.

EOF : Vas dit nog nag of vas dit al dag? —Dit vas in die

dag gevees.

Eoe laat? — In die middag.

MNR. PICE : Toe julle nou daar vertrek het en julle begin

etapf hoe het julle geetap? Eustig etil of het julle iets

gedoen tervyl julle gestap het? — Ons het gesing. (50)

Vat het julle geeing? — Die liedere vat ek alreeds genoein

... / het

E228.26 - 3872 - IC.10

het.

Die" vat jy gee& het Julie geleer het in Max ee ootorbuie?

— Ja. • .

SOOB Julie gestap het xcet die pad langs waE die pad skoon,

het hy ekoon gebly of het lets gebeux? — Ons het kllppe in die

pad gepakf dromme en die vullie in die pad versprei.

Eoekom het julle dit nou gedoen?— Sodat die polisie-

voertuie nie daar -verby kon kom nie.

HOF : Het julle dit vantevore afgeepreek gehad? — Ja.

KKK. FICE : Julie etap toe daar op pad na fc polisieman met(10)

die csaic van Kotsoneng se huis toe? — Ja.

HOF : Kaar was u nie op pad na die raadelede ee huise nie? —

Die mense vat na die raadslede ee huiee gegaan het, moes ook

na die polisie se huiee gegaan het.

HK5. TICK : Vat gebeur toe julle op pad is na hierdie poli6ie-

man Kotsoneng ee huie toe? — Ons kon nie daarin elaag om daar-

die plek aan te val nie, vant die polisie was daar teenvoor-

dig. Ket die gevolg ief ons het veggehardloop.

Vaar is julle heen toe julle veggehardloop het?— Ek het

huis toe veggehardloop. (20)

Eet u reguit huie toe gehardloop of het u ander plekke

by ELangegaan op pad huis toe? — Ek het reguit huis toe gegaan.

SOOB U gehardloop het, het u gesien of daar enigiets gebeur

in die omgewing? Of daar enige probleme vas? — Ja. Elalele

ee vinkel vas aan die brand gevees. ELalele is *n ondervyser.

Ket *n ondervyser of het hy *n ander beroep ook gehad? —

Ey vas ook *n raadslid.

Vas hy op daardie etadium nog *n raadslid of nie? — Ja,

hy vas t raedslid.

U is toe huie toe? — Nee. Vat gebeur het is, op pad (30)

huis toe tervyl ek veggehardloop het -van die polisie af, het

... / ek

E226.30 - 3673 - IC.10

ek gesien dat hierdie vinkel aan die brand vas. Dlt le Elalele

8e vinkel, as gevolg waarvan ek toe besluit bet or na hierdie

vinkel toe te gaan en goedere veg te neem.

Eet u die vinkel geplunder? — Ja.

Vas u die enigste een vat dit gedoen het of vas daar nog

ander ook? — Daar vas ander sense ook. Ons vas baie*

Die pereone vat vroefr eaai tet u begin bet net die optog

en met die petrolbonme, was van hulle ook nog daar "by hierdie

vinkel of het u nie een van bulle daar gesiennnie? — Ek het

nie rondgekyk om te sien vie almal daar vas nie. Al vat (10)

ek In belang gestel het op da&rdie stadium vas om goedere

uit die vinkel uit te neem,

Is u toe huie toe? — Nee, nie onmiddellik nie. Die

polisie het op *n stadium daar opgedaag en ons veggejaag van

die vinkel af vaar ons goedere veggeneem het. Toe die polisie

nog daar vas, bet ons veer gehardloop na Elalele ee elagbuie

toe, vaar ons nog goedere geneei het.

Die elaghuis en die vinkel van Elalele, hoe ver is hulle

uit Eekaar uit? — (G-etuie dui distansie aan)

HO? : 10 Meter. Beboort dit aan dieselfde man? — Ja. (20)

KKR. TICK : Ean ons net duidelikheid kry, die vinkel en die

slagbuis is dit slles een blok geboue of staan die geboue

apart van mekaar, so ver BOOS vat u van my af is? — Dit is

tvee aparte geboue.

U ie toe daar na die slaghuis toe en u bet u self gebelp?

— Ja.

Vat gebeur toe? — Die volgende het toe gebeur. Die

polieie bet veer na die slaghuis toe gekom vaar hulle ons veg-

gejaag het* Tervyl hulle nog daar gekyk het na die slagbuis,

vat ook aan die brand vas, het ons toe veggehardloop na die(30)

bottelstoor toe vat ons met klippe bestook het en toegang

.•. / verkry

K226.32 - 3674 - IC.10

verkry bet en one self ook daar gehelp bet met die voorraad

vat in die bottelstoor was.

Vie ee botteletoor is dit bierdie? — Ek veet nie vie die

eiensax van die botteletoor ie nie.

Eoe ver is by van die elaghuis af van Klalele? — Dit is

iDoeillk om te skat.

16 dit in dieselfde etraet die plekke? — Ja, in dieselfde

Btraat.

U is nou eoontoe en u het u eelf daar gehelp. En toe? —

Die polisie bet toe ook daar gekorc en geskiet en one het (10)

toe gevlug.

Vaarmee bet hulle geekiet? — Traangae.

U ie toe daar weg en waarheen iB u toe? — Ek is toe huis

toe.

Die volgende dag na bierdie voorval, waar was u toe gevees?

— Ek was by die huis.

Is u e*rens heen gedurende die dag? — Ja, ek is na fc

vergadering.

Vaar was die vergadering gevees? — By Max.

HO? : Van TSO? — Ja. (20)

KNR. TICK : Vat bet julle daar bespreek? — Oor die huurgeld.

Eet julle enige verdere optrede bespreek in die vergadering?

— Jaf daar bet one gepraat dat one met mnr. Ganz wou gaan

praat het.

Oor? — Oor die huurgelde.

Gedurende Augustus 1984 ..• (Hof kom tussenbei)

HOF : Eierdie ie nou die middel van Julie? — Ja.

Vas daar nou al verhoogde buurgeld van fcrag? — Ja.

MNR. FICK : Vat was die huurgeld wat julle op daardie stadium

betaal het? Weet u? — R37fOO. (30)

Vas dit nou na die verhoging of voor die verhoging? —

... / Die

K228.40 - 3675 - IC10

Die geld was altyd maar R37,O0 gevees. Dit was eintlik nle

verhoog nie. Ons het net gevoel daardie R37,O0 is te veel.

EOF: So, dear was nle eintlik fc verhoging op daardie etadiur

nie? — Nee.

KKR. ?IC£ : Gedurende Augustus 1954 was u "by die ekool gevees

en u is toe genader deur persone? — Ja.

Daar ie toe gepraat in verband cet die prinsipaal van die

skool en osstandighede by die skool self? — Ja.

Die persone wat met u kom praat het, kan u onthou vie hulle

was? —Ja. (10)

Kie was hulle? — Kofclo, Ketsi en Benji.

HOF : Dit is drie persone? — Ja.

KKR. FICE : Dit i6 nou dieselfde drie waarvan u gepraat het

vat u geverf het vir TSO? — Ja.

Wat is daar bespreek? — Oor die skoola&ngeleenthede.

Vat -van die ekoolaengeleenthede? Was daar ontevredenheid?

— Ons vou nie daardie prinsipaal gehad het nie. Eintlik is

dit nie net die prinsipaal alleen vat ons nle vou gehad het

nief maar twee onderwysers, naamlik Sekonyela en Makwala.

Vat was die griewe teen die drie here? — Hulle het ons (20)

te veel geslaan, iceer as vat die ender dit gedoen het.

Het julle enige ander klegtee by die ekool nog gehad? —

Nee.

Eet julle besluit wat gaan julle maak in verband met hler-

die grieve van julle? — Ja.

Vat het u besluit? — Ons het besluit dat one *n brief gaan

ekryf aan die hoof van die ekool en hoffi versoek dat hy en die

tvee assi8tente die ekool moet verlaat. Dit vil E6 die een

onderwyeer en die ander een vas n ondervyseres.

Het julle besluit vat gaan julle doen as daar nie reak-(30)

die kom van die ekool nie? — Ja, die besluit vas - ons het

... / besluit

E22E.41 - 3676 - IC.10

besluit dat ae daar nie reaksie kon van die skool niet die

hele ekool met klippe bestook sal word tesane met al die onder-

wyeers in daardie skool.

Eet die ekoolhocf gereageer op Julie - laat ek BO vra,

het Julie *n brief geskryf? — Jaf Kofolo Kohape bet die brief

geekryf.

HOF : Die Kofolo is ey van Kohape? — Ja.

Dit is dieselfde Kofolo vat saan met Ketsi en Benji Eet

Jou gepraat bet? — Ja.

E n . FICX : U eg hy het die brief geskryf? — Ja. (10)

Het die ekoolhoof gereageer op die brief van Kofolo? —

Hee, hy het nie geantvoord op die brief nie.

Eet u toe u besluit uitgevoer om die ekool &an te val met

klippe? — Ja.

rfas dit in t veeksdag, in ekooltyd? — Ja.

HO? : Vat het toe gebeur met die skool. Is die skool beskadig?

— Ja, die skool vas beskadig omdat one die skool met klippe

bestook het.

KKR. FICE : Was die vensters stukkend van die plek of die

dak of die mure? — Die vensters was stukkend. (20)

Van die klaskamers of van die 6koolsaal of van die hoof

se kantoor of hoe werk die ding? — Alles.

HOF : Het al die kinders van die skool deelgeneec of net Julie

vier? — Al die skoolkinders het deelgeneec.

MKR. FICE : Ean u vir die Eof e§, as u nie kan nief kan u nie,

hoe het dit gebeur dat die ander skoolkinders ook betrek is bv

hierdie plan van u? — Ek kan nie eS nie.

Veet u of daar nadat u hierdie besluit geneem het dat die

ekool aangeval eal word ae die ekoolhoof nie reageer nie, enige

vergederinge van ekoliere was op die ekoolterrein? — Vat (30)

van die vergadering?

... / Nee

K228.43 - 3677 - IC.10

Kee, ek vra vir u, nadat u die beslult geneem het as die

ekoolhoof nie gaan reageer op die brief nie, gaen die skool

aangeval word, van daardie datum tot die datum vat die ekool

wel aangeval i s t weet u of daar enige vergaderings van skoliere

gebou was op die 6koolgronde? — Ek weet nie.

Kou vi l ek u nee- na "n later datum* U was op *n Btadium

by fc buis in Ramailanestraat in Tumahole by fc vergadering? —

Je.

HOP : Vanneer was dit?

KKB. PICE : Kan u aandui wanneer dit vas? Vas dit na (ID)

Augustus of weet u nie wat die presiese datun is nie? — Dit

was op "n Vrydag.

U kan dit nie nader beskryf nie? — Nee.

HOP : Was dit *D dag later nadat die ekool bestook is met

klippe of n week of *n maand of wat? — Ek kan nie ontbou nie.

MKR. FICE : Die huis waar u by was by die vergadering, wie

8e vergadering vas dit geweee? Vas dit Vi private bymekaarkor—

plek, was dit "n TSD vergadering of was dit een of ander orga-

nisasie ee vergadering? Wat was dit? -- Dit was *n TSO ver-

gadering. (20)

Vas daar enige ander persone behalwe TSO wat u ojgemerk

het daar? — Jav daar was ander kinders van Sebokeng en Sharpe-

ville.

Ean u enige aanduiding gee hoeveel kinders van Sharpeville

en Sebokeng was daar gewees? — Hulle was nie meer as vyf in

getal nie.

Op die vergadering daar in Ramailanestraat, is die ver-

gadering toegespreek? — Ja.

Vie het u toegespreek? — Tera.

HO? : T-E-R-A? — U kan dit epel op enige manier. Dit (30)

is net Tera,

... / KER. FICK

K22e.5C - 3678 - IC.lO

KICK. TICt : Tera ee van is? — Lekota.

Ie hy aan die vergadering voorgestel? — Ja.

Vie het bom voorgestel? — Lister.

Ie Lister V. lid van TSO? — Ja.

Hoe is Tera voorgeetel? — Hy is voorgestel as Tera Lekota,

die sekretari6 van UDF.

Sien u boiL hier in die bof vandag? — Ek kan nie die per-

eoon nou BO goed ontbou nie.

EOF : Laat die agterste ry beel eerste opstaan. Die voorste

ry kan bly Bit. Kyk goed, vat Jou tyd. — Kommer drie van(10)

bierdie kant af.

Beskuldigde nr . 20.

KICK. FICK : TJ eft by het toe die vergadering toegespreek? —

Ja.

Vat bet hy aan die vergadering gese daar by Eamailanestraat'

— In sy toespraak het hy ges€ dat by daar teenwoardig was o^

ons te leer hoe oic petrolbomme te vervaardig.

Eet hy op die vergadering vir u geleer hoe OE dit te maak?

— Ja.

Hoe het hy u geleer? — Ey het die nip gevat, BOOS ek (20)

dit vroefe'r beskryf het, dit ook so gemeng, net presies soos

my vorige beskryving met t etukkie lap.

Het hy gese" boe dit gemeng moet vord of bet by dit fieies

voor die vergadering gemeng? — Ey het dit fisies daar gemaak.

EOF : Het hy vir julle ook vertel van verhoudinge, boeveel van

elk? — Nee, hy bet nie gese" nie, maar one bet gekyk toe hy

dit gemaak bet, hoe vord dit gemaak. One het nie gekyk vat

die afmetinga was nie.

KKR. FICE : Vae daar enige ander voorwerpe bebalve die nip

vat van gepraat is vir petrolbomae daar? — Nee. *^*'

Hoe het by vir u aangedui, wat tnoet ingegooi vord in die

... / nip

K226.51 - 3679 - IC.10

nip coos u ee? — Petrol, paraffien en brasso moet in die nip

ingegooi word. Die etukkie lap vat ook ingedruk xooet vord.

En *n prop op? Het hy enigiets gese Tan *n prop? — Jy maak

*n gat in die prop en dan druk Jy die lap deur die gaatjie vat

jy ge=^ak het in die prop 02 daardie lap in die bottel in te

kry.

Eet jy op die vergadering enigiets vernees van plakkate?

— Jar dat ons plakkate icoet skryf.

Vie het vir u ges§ dat u plakkate coet ekryf? — t Ander

pereocn vat ook *c "speaker" daar was, nie die een (Ver- (10)

skcor. tog, U Edele, die getuie het BO oncuidelik gepraat met

die hand in die nond det ek verkeerd verstaan het vat ey e^.

Wat BT "bedoel is, dieselfde pereoon vat die toespraak geitaak

het er* ons peleer het hoe OE petrolhomne te maak, is die persoon

vat d aarvan gepraat het en gese het van die plakkate.)

Prast jy van beskuldigde nr. 20 of van *n ander persoon?

EOF : Sy praat van Tera? — Ja.

1-35?.. T1OZ : Is ean u enigsins leiding gegee hoe on die plakkate

te naak? — Ey het gese ons coet enige ding daarop ekryf wet

ons daarop geskryf vil he op die plakkat. {20)

IB dit aan u fisieE gedenonstreer eoos in die geval van

die petrolbom of is daaroor net gepraat? — Ey het net daarvan

gepraat.

Eierdie vergadering vae op die Vrydag gevees, het u gese?

BO? : Gaan u veg van die vergadering af?

KKH. TICK : Ek gaan weg van die vergadering af.

HOP: Ek vil net *n vraag vra. V veet vanneer die opstande,

die "riotB" plaasgevind het in die Vaal Driehoek? — llee.

Ek vil eintlik iceer van u veet vanneer het hierdie ver-

gadering plaasgevind vaarvan u nou net gepraat het? — Dit (30)

vaa op fc Vrydag gevees. Ek kan nie onthou vat die datum vas

... / nie

£226.59 - 3680 - IC.1O

nie.

ASSESSOR (KKH. EKUGEL) : V het netnou Dear gesfe dat op fc dag,

17 Julie, het u met petrolbomme vat op hierdie marder gemaak

is in drie groepe vertrek en u het eekere plekke gaan eanval?

— Ja.

Vae hierdie demonetrasie deur Tera Lekota deur hoe om die

petrolbomae te inaak voor of na 17 Julie? — Dit vas na die datur

van die 17def want op die 17de het Chefoa die petrolbomice daar

gebring. Hoe hy dit reggekry het om dit BO te aaakt kan ek nie

s§ nie. (10)

KKR. FICE : Op hierdie vergadering is daar gepraat oor waar

julle hierdie petroltomme kan gebruik? — Ja, dit vas gesl

one kan dit gebruik as one plekke aan die brand wil gaan eteek,

BOOS die huise van die raadslede, polieiemanne ee huiee en by

enige ander plek vat one gekies het en besluit het OE dit aan

die brand te eteek.

HO? : Vie het dit gesfe"? — Tera.

KKR. FICK : 16 dit nou die persoon wat *vir u gewys het om die

goei te maak? — Ja.

TJ sfe dit vae op *n Vrydag. Kou die Kaandag, vas u Bkool(2G)

toe? — Ja.

Vat het die Kaendag daar by die skool gebeur? — Ons het

gevag vir die ondervysers om by die parade te kom. Ons het

hulle toe met klippe begin bestook omrede die prinsipaal nie

geantvoord het op die brief vat aan horn gerig vas nie*

Eierdie parade, is dit nou die oggend parade voor die skool

begin, dan tree al die kinders aan of is dit *n ander parade? —

Ja, dit is die oggend parade.

TJ B6 u het gewag tot die ondervyeere daar gekom het en hulle

met klippe gegooi? — Ja. (30)

Vas dit vooraf bespreek geveee dat dit gedoen gaan vord?

••• / Ja

E226.62 - 3881 - IC.lO

J&f dit waB vantevore bespreek.

HCF : Vaar vas dit beepreek? — By Ramailanestraat,

By die vorige vergadering vet die vorige Yrydag plaasge-

vind het? — Ja.

Vie het u aangeraai OE dit te doen? — Kofolo ie die

perecon vat die brief ge6kryf het vat gerig vae aan die prinsi-

paal, vie toe nie daerop geantvoord het nie. Ons het toe die

Kaandag besluit dat ons die ekool gaan aanval*

Eet u die klipgooiery die Vrydag by die vergadering

bespreek of eere die Ka&ndag toe die klipgooiery plaasgevind(lC)

net? — Dit vas bespreek die Vrydag in die vergadering.

Kir?.. FICZ : Was die persoon vat u noem Tera Lekota, vas by

no£ op die Yergaderirig toe dit bespreek vas of v£.s hy nog nie

daar nie? — Ja.

V&s hy nog daar of vas hy nie daar nie? — Hy vas daar

gevees.

U se u gooi toe nou klippe. Het u alleen gegooi of het

die hele ekool se kinders gegooi of het leie van T30 gegooi?

— Al die skoolkinders het klippe gegooi.

Kan u aandui hoe dit gebeur het dat el die kinders (20)

eaan gegooi het? — Ek veet nie.

Ie enigiete beskedig in hierdie klipgooiery? — Ja,

die ondervysere het weggehardloop na die stafkamer toe. Ons

het hulle gevolg en hulle daar met klippe bestook in die

Is vensters Etukkend gegooi? — Ja.

Veet u of die ekoolinspekteur die dag daar vas? — Ja,

hy vae daar.

Veet u of hy Vi voertuig daar gehad het? — Ja.

Bet die voertuig enigieta oorgekom daardie dag? — (30)

Jaf dit het.

... / Vat

E226.66 - 3662 - IC.10

Vat het gebeur met hoir? ~ Bit het gebrand.

16 dit san die "brand gesteek? — Ja.

EG? : Het die kinders dit ook aan die "brand geeteek? —- Ja.

KK?. FICK : U het op Vt stadium veggehardloop huis toe? —

Ja, ek het.

Waaroa het u weggehardloop? Was daar polieie of hoekoz

het u besluit om te hardloop? — Die poliBie het ons veggejaag.

Tervyl jy op pad was oz- weg te hardloop, het u die ekocl-

hoof ee huis gesien? — Ja.

Eet u gesien vat daar aangaan by sy huie? — Ja* (10)

Vat het daar aangegaan? — Dit was aan die brand gewees.

Eet u gesien hoe hy aan die brand geraak het? — Nee, ek

het nle.

Ban vil ek net u gaan na Januarie 1985. Toe was u veer

by *z vergadering vat in "n kerk gehou was vat oorkant die

Hooms)katolieke kerk is in Tumahole? — Ja.

H:-F : Veet u vat daardie kerk se naam is? — Kee, ek weet nie.

}Q.\R. FICE : Wat ee vergadering vas hierdie gevees? Vas dit

*D privaat vergadering of *n vergedering van een of ander orga-

nieasie? — Dit was die TSO vergadering vat gehou vas daar(20)

met die oog daarop om die naajn van die organisasie te ver-

ander. In plaas van TSOf dat dit bekend moet etaan as Tunahole

Youth Congress.

Het julle op hierdie vergadering ook "D epreker gehad vat

julle toegespreek het? — Ja.

Wie vas dit? — Tera.

Dieselfde een as vat u vroee"r van gepraat het? — Ja.

HOF: Dieselfde persoon vat hier in die hof eit? — Ja.

KKR. FICK : Vaaroor het hy met u kom praat? — In ey toespraak

het hy gesfe TSO is net vir die skoolkinders. Die naani (50)

moet nou verander word sodat dit kan toelaat dat self s mense

..• / vat

E226.71 - 3883 - IC.10

vat nie op Bkool 1B nie, kan aansluit by hierdie organisasie.

16 dit nou enige mense of jeugdiges vat nie in die stool

ie ale? — Ja.

Eet hy verder met u gepraat oor die verksaachede van

hierdie TSC vat nou die Tucahole Touth Congress vord? — Jaf

hy het gese" die verandering van die naart na hierdie nuve naan

van die organisasie eal TJDF versterk 6odat as UDF versterk

is deur hierdie organisasie sal die AKC dan kan vorder.

Het hy uitgebrei op daardie bewering van hon? — Hy het

toe vir ons gevra vat is ons besluit, vat se pns ostrent (10)

die huurgelde, vaerop ons toe gese het ons v i l h€ die huurgelde

coet verminder word na R18f5G, selfs na pL<fCO.

Wat VQ,S sy reaksie daarop? — Ons het ooreengekoc na aan-

leiding vaarvan hy toe ges§ het as dit die geval i s , rnoet

ons dit op die plakkate ekryf R16f50 of R4f5O. Dat huurgelde

Rl£,50 moet vees of selfs R4,50.

Laat ons net duidelikheid kry. U B% julle het ooreenge-

ko-« Vaaroor het julle ooreengekos? — Oor die huurgelde.

EOF : Laat ek net duidelikheid kry. Ey het vir u gevra vat

£§ u oor die huurgelde? — Ja. (20)

Eet die een toe geskreeu dit coet rdnder vees, dit noet

£16,00 vees en die ander een dit moet E4,00 vees, vas dit t

deursekaar skreeuery of vat het toe daar geteur? — Ons het

geEe" die R37fOO is te veel. Die huurgelde moet verrrinner vord

ns FO.6,50 of selfe na R4t5O toe.

Ja, maar dit laat nou tvee moontlikhede oop« Het julle

besluit op R16.50 of het julle besluit op R4,5O of het julle

nie besluit oor lets nie? — Ons het ooreengekoc dat die tvee

bedrae na mnx. Ganz toe geneem eal vord, dat hy nou t keuse

rnoet uitoefen tussen die tvee, vatter een van die tvee vil(30)

hy eanvaar, R18f50 of R4,5O.

. . . / MS. PICK

1228.80 - 3684 - IC.10

Hi?.. FICI : Die vergadering het in elk geval ooreengekon det

die huur is te hoog en julle vil fc verlaging he1? — Ja.

Eet julle toe fc afvaardiging gekies oa oor die bedrae icet

tnr. Ganz te gaan praat of hoe het julle beBluit vat maak

julle nou? — 0ns het "n afvaardiging gekies.

Ran u aandui vie vas hierdie afvaardiging? Was hulle

lede van TYC, Tumahole Touth Congress of was dit ander mense?

E229 — Vujo, Jo&o, Ace, Kantsopa is *n vroumens en Siloane.

l»a julle nou hierdie mense gekies het om julle te ver-

teenvoordig, om eamesprekings met ETLT. Ganz te gaan voer, (1C)

i vet hierdie efvaardiging genaak daar op die vergadering? —

Vat het hulle gedoen? Ek verstaan nie die vraag nie.

Ka die afvaardiging gekies is ••• (Hof koc tussenhei)

EOF : Bedoel u op die vergadering of na die vergadering?

E . FICK : Op die -verga'dering.

HGF : Hierdie afvaardiging, die nense vat u nou genoem het,

het hulle nog iets gedoen op die vergadering? — Kee.

n~:, FICT : Is daar op die vergadering besluit vat gaan

geheur as hierdie afvaardiging nou nie elaag nie? — Dat daar

baklei inoet word. (20)

Het julle besluit hoe julle gaan baklei? — Ja.

Hoe het julle beEluit wat gaan julle doen? — Bat ons die

raadslede ee huise aan die brand gaac steek asook die polisie

se huiee.

Toe hierdie besluit vas op die vergadering, vas Tera

Lekoa nog daar of was hy al veg? — Ek kan nie meer 60 goed

onthou nie.

Daar is na hierdie vergadering toe uiteindelik besluit

dat op 24 Ilaart 1985 eal daar ... (Hof kom tussenbei)

EOF : Wag net so *n bietjie. Is daar op die vergadering (30)

dit besluit?... / KER. FICZ

K229-O1 - 3885 - IC.10

I-3TH. FICZ : Ifa hierdie vergadering. Ean ons dit so kry.

Ks hierdie vergadering het dit bekend gevord dat daar eaEe-

sprekings met mnr. Ganz sal vees op 24 Kaart 1985? — Ja.

Voor daardie datum, 19 Kaart 1965, die middag toe het

die Tuaahole Youth Congress veer *n vergadering gehou daar in

Turshole? — Ja.

K07 : Wasr ie vergader? — Ket Kax.

In die aotorhuis? — Ja.

I-Ho. PICE : Daar is toe gerapporteer dat hierdie vergadering

sal vees op 24 Naart 08hO0 by mnr, &anz of eaan met mnr. (10)

Ganz en elcs! sal sasmkom op *n Bekere plek? — Ja.

Eerstens, vaar sou die eameeprekingE ist mnr. Ganz gewees

het? — Ja, ek veet.

Vaar? — By die stadion.

In Tumahole? — Ja.

Was daar op hierdie vergadering van julle op die 19^e

besluit oor vie almal by hierdie samesprekings sal wees afge-

sien van die efvaardiging? — Kee, net hulle sou daar gewees

het.

EC? : Vie? Die efvaardiging? — Ja. (20)

1-37?.. FICE : Eet julle op die vergadering besluit vat gaan

nou gebeurf vat gaan julle itaak en hoe gaan julle nou optree

as nrj. Gana hf nie opdaag nie bf hy stem nie in tot die ver-

laging nie? — Bat ons moes baklei. Dit was die besluit

gevees.

Hoe het julle bssluit on te baklei? — Bat ons die reads-

lede aee coat baklei esook met die polisie.

EC? : Sou dit veer beteken fc aanval op hulle huise? — Ja.

KKE. fICE : Julle het daarna *n verdere vergadering gehou by

Kax se huls? (30)

HOF : Voor die datum van mnr. Ganz ee vergadering?

... / KHR. FICK

1229.05 - 3886 - IC.10

KT?.. ?ICP. : Voor die datuc van mnr. Ganz ee vergadering. —

Je.

Vat het julle op hierdie vergaderlag gedoen of besluit?

— In hierdie vergadering het ons bespreek vat gedoen gaan vord

as zzLr. Ganz nie antvoord nie en tveedens, one het mense daar

gekies, indien one gaan baklei, eoos besluit, vie die Dense ie

vat die petrolbonme moet gaan mask.

Vie was nou almal betrokke by die maak van hierdie petrol-

bo^e, is daar besluit? — Ek self.

Vie nog? — Vujo, Oupa, Mkonzi, Chefoa. Bit is al (1G)

•Die petrol, vaar het julle dit gekry? — Ek het die petrol

by ny huiE gesteel.

Eet julle toe hierdie petrolbomme genaak? — Ja.

Vaar? — 3y Chefoa ee huie.

Eoe lank vas dit nou voor die vergadering van 24 Kasrt

sou plaasvind? — Dit vas net *n dag voor hierdie dag van die

vergadering,

Eoeveel petrolbonme het julle gemaak? — Vyf-en-dertig.

Ket julle dit op dieselfde manier gemaak as die voriges(2G)

of het julle dit op ̂ ander manier gemaak? — One het hulle

geaaak soos ek al vroee*r beskryf het. Bit is die gewonc manier.

Dit is nou die dag voor die vergadering van die 24ste sou

plaasvind. Vat maak julle toe met hierdie petrolbomiDe nadat

julle dit gemaak het? — Ons het dit verdeel.

Is julle veer in groepe opgedeel? — Ons het dit tussen

ons verdeel, die vervaardigers daar, hoeveel ons elkeen by hoc

of haar sou gehou het.

Julle ie toe uiteen. — Ja.

Die volgende dag, dit is nou die 24ste Maart 1985f (30)

vat gebeur toe die oggend? — Ons het bymekaar gekoci by die

• • • / geiteenskapsaal

E229.1O - 3867 - IC.10

geseenskapssal. Nie binnekant nlet maar in die oageving.

i-e jy e£ ons het bycekaar gekom, is dit net die mense vat

petrolbonme gemaak het of is dit die hele lot van hulle of vie

is dit? — Al die lede van TYCO het daar bymekaar gekon.

EOF : TYCO iE nou die Tunahole Youth Congress? — Ja.

I-SvP.. FICK : Was die petrolbomne by julle? — Ja.

Vat gebeur toe? — Ons is eers na Ksx ee huie toe, waar

ons toe gerapporteer het dat dear petrolbonme beakikbaar vas.

Daarna het ons toe gaan baklei.

Toe u die eerste keer by die gemeenskapsaal bycekagr (10)

koz, waiter tyd van die d&g vas dit gewees? — Dit vas OEhOO.

Het die vereRdering op 24 fesrt 1955 oz CShOO net nmr.

Gan2 vel plaasgevind? — Nee, hy het nie opgedaag nie.

ASSESSOR (I-£\R. JCPBSS) : Matter dag van die week was dit?

— As ek reg onthou was dit to Saterdag. Ek is nie seker nie.

Ek kan nie ineer so goed onthou watter dag nie.

I-3-r3. PICK : U se mnr, Ganz het nie opgedaag nie en u is na

Eax ee huis toe en daar het u gerapporteer daar ie petrolbon^e

beskikbaar. Vat gebeur toe?

HOF : Ek gaan nou eers die verdaging neer. JEk wil aar. (20)

die hand doen dat u die getuie eers uit die hofssal verwyder,

voordat daar Vi toestroi^ing is van *n hele aantal lede van die

publiek kan veroors&ak met haar identit-eit.

GETUIE STAAK AF.

IR BI20S : Ivy Lord, I did not want to raise this whilst she

vas present in case it added to some of her discomfort. I

assuse that we are entitled to this witness's name.

CPU?."- : I will discuss this with my assessors and let you know,

KR BIZ05 : I cay Bay that Ky Learned Friend did give me the

name before and I assumed that it would be coming. (30)

COUF.g : Then you have it.

„•. /MR BIZOS

- ICIO

1-IF: BIZOS : I have it. 3 did not waxt it debated in her

presence.

HOF YEDAAG. HOF EEP.VAT.

IIT CA?S?Jt GirUIE KH. 1 0 . nog onder eed

KK?.. 3I5CS YrJ, VZRLOF VIR BE5T?IPIGD2S KES. 16 BIT 3 OK PIS ECF-

SAA1 TZ VE5LAAT TEN EINPE *K 00SART5 TE 3PHEEF..

BESnJLDIGDES KRS. 1 EN 10 MOET OOK DIE POSTER GAAN SFRESK.

SAAE GAAK YOORT IN DIE AJVESIGHEID YAK BESEULDIGDES MRS. 1 6 , 3 .

10 e n l ,

0HD55YRAGIK& DEUR MNR. FICE (vervolg) : One het laas met (10)

u getuienie gestop waar u geafe het dat u is toe na Kax Koleko

se huis daardie oggend van 24 Kaart 1985* — Ja.

Vaar u gesfi het daar ie petrolbomme beskikbaar? — Ja.

Vat het van daar af gebeur? — Daar was veer drie groepe

verdeel daar vat toe die plek verlaat het. 0ns is toe in die

rigting van die kantore.

Die drie groepe, het hulle eaain veggeloop daar? — Ja.

Vas u ook een van die drie groepe? —- Ja.

Die petrolbomme, het al drie groepe van die petrolbomme

by hulle gehad of het een groep nie gehad nie? — Elke (20)

graep het petrolbomme gehad.

Toe u nou vegstap daar van Koleko se huis af, hoe fc groot

groep vae julle vat daar veg is? — 0ns vas nie meer as vyftig

nie.

In een groep? — Ja. Die mense, die getal mense vas nie

meer as vyftig nie vaaruit die drie groepe bestaan het.

Toe Julie drie groepe daar vegbeveeg van die huis af f

het julle in etilte beveeg of hoe het julle gemaak? — 0ns het

geslng.

Vat het julle gesing? — Freedom songs liedere. (30)

Op fc stadium het julle drie groepe uitmekaar gegaan of

... / het

K229.15 - 3889 - IC.10

bet julle eaam beveeg? —- Die groepe le uitmekaar.

Vaar is u groep heen? — Ka die polieiehuiee toe.

En die tveede groepf veet u vaar hulle heen la?— Hulle

is na die kantoor toe.

Is dit nou die kantcor van die Adminietrasie vaar julle

huur betaal? — Je.

En die ander groep? — Ka die raadelede ee huise toe.

U gaan toe cou daar na die polisie ee huise toe. Vat

gebeur met u groep? — 0ns is na ene Boesman se huis toe.

Ey is b polisieman. 0ns kon nie daarin elaag om sy huis (10)

aan te val nie.

Wat vas julle probleem? — Met ons aankoms by hierdie huis

was die polisie reeds daar.

En vat gebeur toe? -- Ons het veggehardloop.

Vaarheen is julle toe? — Ons is toe na die huis -van ene

Pule.

Is hy fc polisieman of fc privaat persoon? — Ey is n raads-

lid.

Vat het daar gebeur? — Ons het die huis met klippe bestook,

Die polisie het daar opgedaag en ons veggejaag. Ons het (20)

veggehardloop. Dit vas toe stil gevees daarna. Die nag het

die drie groepe veer bymekaar gekom.

Daardie betrokke dagf behalve die klippe vat julle gegooi

het, het julle van die petrolbomme gebruik in julle groep? —

Kee, ons het dit nie gebruik nie.

Tveedens, vaar julle bymekaar gekom het die dagr vaar vas

dit? — By die begraafplaas.

In Tumahole? — Ja.

Watter tyd van die nag vas dit? — Dit vas laat in die nag

OE en by 24h00 middernag. (30)

Hoe het dit gebeur dat die groepe daar bymekaar gekom het?

... / Is

K229-18 - 3890 - IC.1O

le dit afgeepreek, le dit toevallig of hoe het die gebeur dat

die drie groepe veer bymekaar uitgekom het? — Vujo het vir

one ges6 dat ons veer daar bymekaar gaan kom.

Vanneer het Vujo vir u gesfc dat julle veer daar bymekaar

moet koc? ~ Soos ek alreede ges& het, later daar die dag het

dit toe etil gevord. One het toe veer bymekaar gekom na dit

etil gevord het f dit is die drie groepe vaar Vujo toe vir ons

ges@ het dat one later die nag bymekaar moet kom by hierdie

plek.

Dit is nou die begraafplaas? — Ja, (10)

Vat het intussen van die petrolbomme gevord vat u gehad

het? — Bit vas nog in die groep gevees, vant hulle vas nie

gebruik nie.

Het u toe bymekaar gekom middernag by die begraafplaae?

— Ja.

Vat het julle toe gemaak? — One het daardie nag toe

baklei.

Die nag toe julle nou daar bymekaar kom, vas dit nog net

julle drie klein groepe of vae daar meer mense of minder? —

Ons vas bale. (20)

Baie meer as die vyftig vat die oggend begin het? — Ja.

Uit u eie, veet u vaar kom hierdie ander klomp mense nou

vandaan? ~ Hulle het gehoor toe ons gesing het en toe by ons

kom aansluit.

Vas dit gedurende die loop van die dag vat hulle aangesluit

het by u of het u gesing in die nag? — Die nag.

Vaar het u gesing? By die begraafplaas of op pad na die

begraafplaas toe? ~ Toe one nou die begraafplaae verlaat het,

het ons gee ing. Daarop het die cense by ons kom aansluit*

By die begraafplaas vaar julle bymekaar gekom bet, (30)

eoos Vujo gese het, is enigiets daar bespreek oor vat julle

... / nou

K229.20 - 3891 - IC.10

nou gaan inaak? — Jaf one het besluit dat ons die elaghuie

van die ondervyeer Elalele aan die brand gaan eteek.

IB dit nou net julle groep of is dit die hele lot eaam? —

Die hele klomp mense saam.

En Julie etap toe nou na Hlalele se elaghuie toe? — Ja.

En julle eing. Wat het julle gesing? — Die Freedom songs.

Die* vat u reeds opgenoem het? —- Ja.

Bet u enigiets by u gehad in die lyn van vapens? — Nee.

HOP : En die petrolbomme? — Nee.

-MKK. FICE : Waar vas die petrolbomaie op daardie stadium. (10)

Weet u? — Ek kan nie irieer onthou nle.

Julie gaan nou na die slaghuie van Hlalele toe. Wat gebeur?

— Ons het die slaghuie aan die brand gesteek.

HOF : Ran ek net hier onderbreek, as u moeg voel kan u gaan

sit te eniger tyd,

KRH. FICE : Het u gesien hoe die slaghuis aan die brand

gesteek word, op vatter vyse? — Ek kon nie sien nie.

Nou brand die slaghuis. Wat gebeur? — Die polisie het

toe gekom. Hulle het ons vegejaag daar.

Met vat het hulle julle veggejaag? — Hulle het traan-(2C)

gae daar geskiet. Ek het toe veggehardloop.

Gaan voort? — Toe ons gevlug het vanaf die slaghuis het

ons na die polisie se huise toe gehardloop.

Was dit nog steeds in Tumahole? — Ja. Ons het gehardloop

na die polisie se huiBe toe. Ons het die huise daar aangeval.

Na ons die huise aangeval het, het ek veggehardloop. Tervyl

ek veghardloop vas ek gesien deur die polisie. Ek is toe daar

gevang.

Die polisie se huiBe vat u B§ vat u aangeval het, hoeveel

buiee is sangeval? — Drie polisiemanne se huise is aangeval. (30)

Hoe iB die huise aangeval? Met vat? — Ons het die huise

... / met

E229.22 - 3692 - IC.10

met klippe bestook.

tan u aan die Eof dan ook aandui, u bet paar keer getuig

dat die polieie op die tonele gekom het waar u besig was om

skade aan te rig. Wat was die groep waarin u WBB se houding

elke keer teenoor die polieie as hulle nou so opdaag en fculle

jaag julle uitmekaar uit? Vat maak die groep? — Hulle het

net weggehardloop.

U is toe gearresteer daardie dag nadat u daar by die

polisiemanne se huise betrokke was? — Ja.

CR053-EXAKINATI0K BY KR BIZOS : On what day were you arres-(lC)

ted? — On the same day, which was a Saturday.

What day, what month, what year? — 24 March 1985.

For how long did you remain in custody then? — Three days.

Did you make a statement then? — No.

Were you taken to court? — Yes.

You did not make any statement to the police during that

arrest? «— No.

Can you please tell us if you were arrested again after

you were released? — Yes, I was arrested on many occasions.

Could you please tell us the date more or less, the (20)

month and the year of the many occasions on which you were

arrested?— On 8 August 1985, if I remember well, I was arres-

ted.

For how long did you remain in custody then? — Three days.

Did you make a statement to the police on that occasion?

— Yes, I did.

In August 1985? — Yes.

Was the first statement you have ever made to a police?

— Yes.

How long was that statement that you made in August (30)

1985? — I am not quite certain, but it could have been eight

... / pages

E229.2& - 3893 - IC.10

pages.

IB It the statement that you have been led from by the

prosecutor? — Yes.

Tou say you were arrested many times. Please tell us

on what many occasions you were arrested? — I cannot remember

the other dates on which I was arrested.

On how many other occasions were you arrested? It is

of some Importance. Tou see, because I am going to put to

you that you were right, you were arrested many times. Taken

into custody for a very short while and then released. I (lC)

want to know on how many occasions did that happen? — Seven.

CCURT : Including the tvo you have already mentioned or exclu-

ding them? — Including the two.

KR SIZOS : Let us start from the last one, the most recent

one. Was the most recent one in February 1956? — Tes, it

was in February.

And are you a free person at the moment? — Kof I em in

custody.

I would have thought that Bis Lordship would have been

informed about that. Tou see, I am going to put to you, (20)

it is very easy to put e young girl like you up here to give

thi6 evidence that you gave, but a lot of it is completely

false. Just before we go any further. Is Ace Magashule your

boyfriend? — No.

For how long have you known him? — Quite long.

Was he a close friend of yours? — Tes.

Vere you very good friends? — Tes.

Intimate friends?

COURT : What does that mean? That can mean a couple of

things. She said they were very good friends. Vhat does (30)

your question mean? Bearing in mind that answer.

... / MR BIZOS

K229.30 - 3894 - IC.10

MR BIZOS : Intimate friends, very close to each other,

COURT : Veil, that she has already said. Next question?

MR BIZOS : Why do you not want to admit that he is your boy-

friend? — Ee is not.

I suppose he was not when he was in detention as well,

but before he was detained, was he your boyfriend? — Yes, he

was before.

So, up to the time of his detention he was your boyfriend?

— Just before his detention he was no longer my boyfriend.

Vhen was he detained? — I do not know. (10)

Veil, you told us that he was your boyfriend just before

hie detention. Vhen did he cease being your boyfriend? —

Before his arrest. Vhat I am trying to say is this, while we

were still in the township, before his arrest, he was no

longer ny boyfriend.

Ve will come back to this. Precisely vhen were you

detained in 19&6, February? Precisely what date? — The 17th.

Of February? — Tes.

And this was the seventh time on which you were taken in-

to custody? — Tes. (20)

You told us on the two occasions that you spent three

days. On this occasion you are still in custody?— Yes.

Vhy are you in custody in February 1986? Vere you told

why you were taken into custody in February 1986? — Yes, I

was told.

Vhat were you told in February 1986 why were you taken

into custody? ~ What was told to me was, I waa being taken

into custody because they are ecared that anything can happen

to me, because I am going to be a witness.

Vho told you that? — A certain Vhite man. I do not (3c)

know what his name is.

... / Was

K229.32 - 3B95 - IC.10

Vas he the person who took your statement? — No. It

is e certain White man who is working with those Whites there.

Did you see him here this morning? — Yes, I did see

him.

Was he in court before the adjournment? — No, he was

not in this court today.

You sav him in the vicinity of the court-room? — Yes.

Tou have told us nov of liiree occasions on which you were

in detention, in custody. Will you please tell us about the

other four? When end for how long? — I do not understand (10)

that question.

COURT : We have heard of three, let us call it, arrests of

yourself. Kov counsel wants to know about the other four? —

Let me put it this way. The six occasions that I was arrested

I was "being detained for about three days on each occasion.

The seventh one, which is the present one, is the only period

which is longer than the three days.

MR BIZ OS : Let us come back to August 1985. Tou told us

you made this long statement. Bid you admit in that statement

that you yourself were guilty of very serious crimes? — (20)

Do you mean that I admit that I am guilty of the crimes?

Yes. Remember when you cade that statement in August

you admitted to committing serious crimes, taking partin

petrol bombingB and stone throwing, and agreeing to do away

with policemen and councillors. Do you remember that? — Yes,

if that is the case I admitted being guilty.

Did anyone explain to you why you were let free after

three days? Vhy were you let free? — Ko, what happened is,

each time I was being arrested and on the third day or after •

the third day I would "be taken to court where I would be (30)

released may be on ball or whatever.

... / Prom

£229.36 - 3696 - IC.10

Prom August 1985 when you admitted - after you have

admitted this In your long statement, were you admitted to

bail and on what charge? — Yes.

On what charge^ — Public violence.

Bow much bail? — R100.00.

And did nothing happen to that caBe? — No*

When were you told for the first time that you would be

a witness? — On the 17th.

So, you were only told for the first time on 17 February

1966 that you were expected to be a witness? — Yes. (10)

The arrests that took place between August 1955 and

February 1986, were they also when you were caught at places

where stones were thrown and public violence was taking place?

— Yes.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. That after

you made the statement in August 1985 and you were released

on R100,00 bail» you continued taking part in public violence.

Is that correct? — Yes.

I would like to get the date6 more or less. How long

after you made the statement in August 1985 were you first (20)

arrested again? — Do you mean for how long I was free?

No, well, yes, if you would like to put it that way? —

I doubt finishing two weeks being free. I was then again

arrested.

On the spot, so to speak, committing acts of public

violence? — No, not on the spot. They fetched me from home

at night.

Vho fetched you? ~ The police from Parys.

The ones that had taken your statement? — Yes.

Vho was the person from Parye that had taken the (30)

etatement from you and who came about two weeks later to fetch

... / you

K229.40 - 3697 - IC.10

you from home? — Van der Kerwe.

And what was the charge then? — Public violence.

When were you eupposed to have committed that violence?

—The day on which there was fighting. I cannot res-ember the

exact date.

Vas it just before Van der Kerwe came to pick you up

two weeks after you made your etatement? — Yes.

Did he accuse you of having committed further public

violence after you had made your etatement? — Do you mean

after the statement I made? (10)

Yes? — Yes, he used to cose and fetch me on different

days if there was any fighting in which I was involved.

And you would tell him about the fighting in which you

were involved and then he would release you again? — The

statement I am referring to now is the only statement I made.

On other occasions, each time I was being accused, I would

just deny any knowledge and say that I did not take part in

that.

Vas your denial true or false? — At times I was telling

the truth. At times I was lying. (20)

Let us see. Out of the seven occaeions on which you

were arrested, on how many occasions did you admit that you

had taken part in public violence? — Only on one occasion.

Otherwise, the rest, I just denied having been involved in ,

that.

Let us see whether we can get it out clearly, that of

the seven occasions on which you were arrested, you only ad-

mitted to being guilty of anything on one oeca6ion and all

other occasions you denied? — Yes.

On each of the occasions that you denied, was a short (30)

etetetnent teken from you denying it? — Yes.

... / Did

£229.42 - 3898 - IC.10_

Did you sign on oath that you dear it? — Yes.

And how many such denials on oath did you cake that you

did not take part in public violence? — Six times.

And out of the six times when you denied it, on how many

occasions did you in fact take part but falsely denied it?

— On five occasions that I vas present I denied any know-

ledge of that. The sixth one 1 vas not at all there. I

believe that case has been disposed of now.

Vhat do you believe has been disposed of? — That is the

sixth case I am referring to in which statement I denied (1C )

any knowledge.

The statement that you made you say in August 1985,

did you make it here in Deloas or did you make it elsewhere?

— I vae in Parys.

• At the police Btation? — Yes.

For how long have you been in custody before you made

it? — I think three days.

On how many occasions have you been asked whether you

were involved in anything on that occasion in August before

you came to admit that you were involved? — Could you (20)

just repeat that?

I vill try and explain it so that it can become plainer.

You told us that on six other occasions you signed statements

eaylng that you were not involved? — Yes.

And from that are we entitled to assume that telling

untruths to a policeman cornea easily to you? — Ko«

Well, it came easily the five out of six times, did it not?

— That is what happened.

On this occasion on which you made the long statement,

on the third day of your arrest, what was your attitude (30)

when you werefiret confronted by Mr Van der Merwe as to

... / wheter

K229.50 - 3699 - IC.10

whether you had taken part or not? — I first denied.

Did you deny on the first day? — Yes.

How many times did you deny it on the firBt day? — On

many times.

And for how long were you in interrogation on the first

day? — It was quite long. I am not quite able to tell how

long it was.

The whole day or a part of the day or the whole night or

part of the night? — I think it was ebout half a night.

Half a night? — Tes. (10)

What tise were you arrested? — I think it wa6 a"bout

O2hOO.

And did you - vere you interrogated from the time that

you were arrested until the next morning? — Tes.

Just by Kr Van der Kerwe or also by people helping him?

— There were other people with him.

Eow many people were with him? — Six or seven.

Could you tell us the names of some of those six or seven

people? — The only person who waB known to me was Van der

Merwe. The others I only know by sight. I do not know (20)

what their names were.

Black or White? — White.

So, there was Van der Kerve and six other Whites. — Yes.

What did they accuse you of? — That I was present there.

I must tell the truth. If I do not tell the truth they are

going to hit me.

Where were you supposed to be present? — That I was

present in the confusion which was taking place in the town-

ship.

Prom the time that it started right up to the time (3C)

in August when you were taken in? — Yes.

... / And

E229.51 - 3900 - IC.lO

And did you deny it? — Yes.

Did they believe you? — They did not believe me. They

continued forcing ne to tell the truth.

Eov were they forcing you to tell the truth? — They were

asking &>e questions* When I say I do not know in answer to

that question, then they would tell me they are going to hit

me. Because of my being scared of being hit, I then told

then..

We have not reached there, because you told us that you

made the statement on the third day* During this session (10)

on the first night, was it only Kr Van der Merwe who was

asking you questions or were any others asking you questions?

- — The others as well.

Vhilst they were asking you questions, was anybody making

notes of what you were saying? «— Tee.

Who was making notes of what you were saying? — Kr Van

der Kerve.

Was Kr Van der Merwe making notes of the things that you

denied? — Yes.

Did you sign anything, those things that you had denied?(20)

Did you sign those things on that day? _- They said I must

sign.

So, you signed something early in the morning? — Yes.

Was that the first thing that you signed? — Yes.

So, we will call that the first statement.

COUHT : How many pages was that? — It was only one page.

MR BI20S : Did you sign that? — Yes.

Did they ask you to sign that under oath? — Yes.

And did you sign it on oath? — Yes.

During the day - you were at about 02h00, what hap- (30)

pened during the first daylight hours? What happened during••• / that

E229.57 - 3901 - IC.10

tha t period? - - I vas locked up.

COURT : Vhen did you t e l l them for the f i r s t time that you were

involved? — I t vaB on the third day, the day on which I made

a statement.

KR EI20S : Let us remain with the first day. You were locked

up presumably early in the morning. Were you taken out during

the first day? — Yes, I was again fetched the night.

What time during the night eo that we will call this the

second night? What time were you fetched during the second

night? ~ I cannot remember what time it was. (10)

Was it just as it got dark or was it in the early evening

or in the middle of the night or the early hours of the

morning? — It was already in the night.

Had you already gone to sleep? — Yes.

And you were woken up in the night? — Yes.

Where were you taken to from your cell? «-- I was taken

to their offices.

Whose offices? — CID offices.

Did you see Van der Kerwe again? — Yes.

Was he alone or vas he in the company of others? — (20)

He was with others.

The same group as they have been with you in the early

hours of the morning? — Yes, the others were present in the

morning plus two Blacks.

So, there were now in all nine people? — Yes.

Vas this in the morning or at night? — At night.

Hov much time did you spend there? Did you spend the

rest of the night there? Can you tell us how long you spent

with Kr Van der Kerwe in the office with these nine people?

— Ve took quite a long time in that office, until we left (30)

together at about 02h00.

... / How

E229.60 - 3902 - IC.1O

How man~ hours would you say more or less,bow many hours

did you epend In that office? — I think about three hours.

Was enyone of these nine gentlemen making any notes when

you were in the i r company in the middle of the night? — No,

nobody was taking notes there. All they wanted was that I

must go and point out the people with whoa I was involved

in the fighting.

Did you continue denying that you were In any way involved

— Yes.

Throughout that period? — Yes. (10)

Were you protesting your innocence? — Yes.

And did they believe you? — They did not believe that

because in fact they later had to hit me to go and point out

the people.

You Bay l a t e r . Who hit you? —The Elack policeman Kbali.

When did he h i t you? — The same night.

This is the second night of your detention? — Yes.

Vho else was present when this policeman hit you? — Those

policemen were present.

Including Kr Van der Kerwe? — Yes. (20)

And why did this policeman hit you? — That I must make

known 1he names of the people with whom I was involved.

And you continued denying being involved, even after you

were hit? — I admitted.

You admitted after being hit? — Yes.

How were you hit?— He was hitting me with a sjambok.

I do not want you to exaggerate. Do you know what a

ejambok is? — Yest I do.

Would you describe i t to Hie Lordship, please? — I t is

a long thing made of a plastic material. (Witness indi- (30)

cates length). . . / COURT

K229.62 - 3903 - IC.1O

COURT : About 30cm.

KR BIZOS : No, I think she stretched her hands right across

like that. It ie about a metre.

COURT : Nearly a metre.

KR BIZOS : You also clench - half clench your fiet and you

indicate that it goee one way. Is it the same thickness or

does it taper off? ~ From the handle where one holds it, it

is big and then as it goes along it becomes smaller and smaller.

Eow many times were you hit with the sjambok? — I cannot

count really. (1C)

Cn what part of your body were you hit? — All onrer the

body. Ee did not choose a specific part of the body.

'Whilst you were being hit, did you say "Very well, I will

point out people." — Yes.

Did anyone try to stop this policeman from hitting you

with the sjambok? — No, he stopped at his own.

And at about 02h00 you were taken to your cell? — No,

I was not taken into a cell. Ve left together to fetch the

others.

Oh, I see. So, you were hit with the sjambok you (20)

pointed out various people? — Tes.

And after you were hit with the sjambok, would you please

tell us whom you pointed out? — I pointed all the people out

whose names I am not able to mention now.

People of your group - ve will come later to what you

were doing and whether you told the truth about what you were

doing, but you mentioned the names practically of all your

friends? — Yes.

Then you - what time did you finish pointing people out?

— 1 think it vas at about 03h00. (3C)

Once you pointed them out, were the nine people and you

... / together

E229.69 - 3904 - IC.10

together again et the police station? Did you return to the

police station? — What happened is, after pointing out these

people who were later arrested at the same time by the police,

I vas not taken into custody or in the Bame cell vith them.

I was taken to a different part, a different cell altogether

froc vhere they were kept.

Tou were put in a cell? — In feet what I mean is, after

these people were arrested, those that I pointed out, I waE

then taken out of Parys to be kept et a different place alto-

gether. (10)

Vhere were you taken to? — I do not know the name of that

place.

Far avay froc Parys? — Tee.

How far? — I am not in a position to give an estimation

as to how far that is, except to say it is far.

I want to ask you this. During these two interrogation

sessions thet you had in the middle of the night, vas there

perhaps a woman present to conifort you in some way, among

these nine men? — Ko»

You were taken to this police station far away from (20)

Parys and were you locked up in a cell? — Tes.

Did the whole group of policemen, all nine of them,

accompany you to this new place or just a few of them? —

I left with two White policemen,

Van der Kerwe, was he one of them? — Tes.

Do you know who the other one was? — Ko.

Tou were taken to this place and were you kept in custody?

— Tes.

Where you in pain? — Tes.

Tou were not taken to a doctor by any chance? — Ho. (30)

For how long did you remain in your cell before you were

•*• I visited

K229.72 - 3905 - IC.10

visited by Kr Van der Kerve or any of hie colleagues? — I

think I was there for the whole day and then I was again

fetched at night. I cannot tell what time it was. It was

already in the night, because I was already asleep.

You were woken up again? — Yes.

By whon were you woken up? — A Elack policeman whose

name is not known to me*

And where were you taken to? — To Parys again.

And in Parye, what did you do there? — I was again ques-

tioned about these incidents, on which then I told them. (10)

Eov long did you remain there? — Do you mean while

being questioned?

Tes, this is the third night? — I think I finished in

the morning at about dawn or at about 0?h00.

And how many hours would you say did you spend there that

night? — Four plus. I am not certain,

Ey how many policemen were you interrogated at this place?

— By Van der Kerve. Ee was the man who was questioning me.

And how many others were present? ~ I think they were

four. (20)

Were they also asking you questions? — Tes.

And how were you getting on with them? — (Eo reply)

fey I esk you a question. The gentleman who haB just

come into court, Captain Botes, did he ever have anything to

do with you before you came into the witness-box? — Ko.

Are you sure about that? — Tes.

During these four or five hours, were any statement taken

from you on the third night or not? — Yes. Not only by Van

der Kerwe, but another one Hel also came and questioned me

and I answered his questions. (30)

And who was busy writing? — Kel was writing.

... / And

E229-79 - 3906 - IC.10

And Mr Van der Nerve was asking the questions? — What

happened i6 this. The same night after finishing with Van

der Kerwe and the others who were present while Van der Kerve

was questioning me and writing, Kel cane and called me to

another place where he, Nel, also 6tarted questioning me

and writing.

When were you first asked questions about Kr Ter& Lekota?

— Meaning time or the dete or the occasion?

Ko, the occasion, the time when, the date when. How long

after you were taken into custody were you first asked (10)

K230 any thins atout Kr Lekota? — Two days after z.y arrest was

the first time that I was asked about him, I cannot remember

what time it was vhen I was questioned.

Was it before or after you had been hit with the sjambok?

— After having been hit with the sjambok.

By whom were you asked about Kr Lekota? — The two police-

men I have just Eentioned, Kel and Van der Kerwe.

Vhat did they say about Kr Lekota? — They asked ne if

I knew him, I said no, I do not knov him. Nel then said

to me they are going to hit me, I must tell the truth. (20)

Because of my being scared to be hit, I then said yes, I knov

hir.

I want you to please take it from, for what it is worth

from me, that whilst you are in this court you have the Court'e

protection and your continued freedom depends on His Lordship

and not on the police? I wanted to ask you to tell the Court

honestly did you in fact knov Kr Lekota before you were hit

with the sjambok? — Yes.

You do not have to look at the police officers. Look at

His Lordship. (30)

COURT : She was not looking at the police officers.

... / HHR. JAC033

K230.01 - 3907 - IC.1O

KITH. JACOBS : Ek caak beswaar.

COUKT : The police officers arc Bitting on that side and ehe

was looking in that direction. Do not put things on record

that are not correct. Please continue.

KK BIZOS : With the greatest respect, I may see things whilst

I an looking at the witness whilst Tour Lordship is writing

and Tour Lordship can only say that Tour Lord6hip did not see

it, with the greatest respect.

COH?.! : Where did you expect the police officers to be? These

police officers are on your right-hand side. (10)

K?v BIZ05 : I want to assure Tour Lordship that the witness

looked at the police officers. If Yotir Lordship did not see

it whilst Tour Lordship was making a note, then it may well

be that Tour Lordship did not see it, "but the suggestion

that she was not looking at the police officers, with the

greatest respect is just **ot correct, to ay personal expe-

rience.

COURT : I have an objection by the State. I>ut on record

what you saw, Mr Fick?

MR?. FICK : Die een polisiebeampte sit epesifiek so dat (20)

by nie na die getuie kan kyk nie, omdat dit in die verlede

el beveer is dat Tan die ander polisiemanne kyk na die getuies.

Ey 6it spesifiek so dat hy haar nie kan sien nie. Die ander

beampte hier langs my is besig om die getuienis neer te skryf.

Sy net nie gekyk nie. Ek maak beswaar daarteen.

HO? : Ky one assessor did not look up, the other assessor

did not notice the witness looking at the police officers.

MR BIZOS : The suggestion that I make was not that the police

officers were doing anything. I suggest that the witness,

before giving the answer, looked in the direction of the (30)

police officers.

... / COURT

Z250.02 - 3908 - IC.10

COURT : Go ahead, Kr Bizos.

KK El LOS : You told us that you were asked about Kr Lekota

after you vere hit with the sjambok and was it during the

session during the third night? — Yes.

When you vere still afraid? — Yes,

Did they tell you what their interest in Mr Lekota was?

Did they tell you why they were interested in Mr Lekota? —

I do not understand the question.

Why did Mr Lekota's name come up? What did they say about

him? — They asked me if I did not know hie. (10)

Did they say why they were interested in him? — Ko-

Did you know that Kr Lekota was in custody at the time?

~ Ko.

You know, I am going to suggest to you that you are a

very avrare person. As you are smiling now, you know that

you are a very aware person and that you vere hit with a

sjacbok to give evidence in this case? Is that not so? —

When I WEB hit "by the police for the first time, is when they

said to me I must reveal everything about this that I know.

On the 17th when they took me into custody, they said if 1(20)

do not want to give evidence about this, I will go to jail

for a long time, Eov, because I did not want to go to jail

for a long time, they were talking about, I then decided to

reveal everything.

Who told you - when you talk about the 17th, do you talk

ebout 17 February 1986? — Yes.

Who told you that you vould go to jail for a long time?

— A certain White policeman whose name is not known to me,

but I would be in e position to identify him should I see his

again. (30)

Where did you see this policeman? — Here in Delmas.

... / In

X230.O5 - 3909 - IC.1O

In one of the rooms nearby here? — Yes.

So, that the fear of sjamboking and the fear of going to

prison, i s i t s t i l l with you here in court? — No, i t is no

longer with me, because what they said to me, if I were to

give evidence, I would not have to go to j a i l .

Let us just coc-e back to the third night. Vas a written

statement signed by you on the third night? — Tee.

Vae that statement the one that you signed or did you'sign

i t after that third night? — The same night.

Did you eign i t ? — Yes. (10)

A handwritten statement? — Yes.

Eow many pages was that? — Eight.

Did you sign any other statement during that detention?

— No, I did not make any other statement. This was the only

one.

And this was in August 1986? 1985* I beg your pardon?

— Yes.

There is no mistake about that in any way? That it wae

during August that you were hit with the sjambok? — Yes.

And was the oath administered at the time that you (20)

finished the statement? — Yes. No, they did not say to me

I must take the oath. All they said to me wa6 I must sign.

And you signed? — Yes.

Did you read over that statement or was the statement

read over to you or not? — It was read over to me.

What did you think would have happened to you if you did

not sign the statement that was read over to you? — What they

said to me was "If you do not sign this statement, it means

to us that you are scared of something, which makes you not

to sign the statement. (30)

Verethey speaking the truth when they said that you were

• • • / scared

; K230.10 - 3910 - IC.10

scared of Bonething? — No.

Veil, you put your head down and you looked at the ground

an3 you Baid no, but did you not think that if you did not

do according to vhat Kr Van der Kerwe wanted, that you may

be sjamboked again? — I said here that I made the statement

because I vas scared of being sjamboked, behing hit and goir.£

to Jail and therefore, anything that I was asked to do, I vas

bound to do that because of my being scared of the two that

I Lave just centioned.

WITNESS 5TAKD5 DQWK. (10)

COURT ADJOURNS. COURT RE3UI-33

IT CAJ-SRA WITNESS 1\U1>33R 10. still under oath

K231 CHO55-ZXAI^::ATION BY MR EIZOS (continued) : Before the

adjournment you mentioned Mr Nel'e name. — Tee.

And if I understood your evidence correctly you mentioned

his name for the first time because he asked you questions and

he threatened you on the third occasion when you were with

the police, the third night. — Yes.

Was it the first time that you sav Mr Bel? Had he not

been there the previous two nights? — That was the first (20)

tir-e to eee hin. He was not present the previous nights.

Do you remember that you told us that he asked you

whether you knew Kr Lekota and you saidnNo, I do not know his"?

— Tea.

When you told him that you do not know him, he told you

that he was going to hit you? — Tes.

And youthen decided, because you were afraid and because

you remembered the sjamboking that you had had before, you

said "Yes, I know him"? — Yes.

And you told UE that you really had the sjamboking the (30)

night before. That 1B in your second encounter with the police.

... / Yee

£231.01 - 3911 - IC.1C

— Tes.

And you told us as a result of that sjamboking during

the second nightf you decided to te l l the police the truth?

— Tes.

Sof by the time you first met Kr Bel on the third night,

you had already decided as a result of the hiding that you

had got, not to hide anything from the police? — Tes.

Why was your first answer to Mr Kel that you do not know

Kr Lekota? — Do you mean why I said I do not know him?

Tes? — It is because I did not want to tell about (1C)

what I know. When they asked me about things, I was reluctant

to tell them.

Teei but you told us you had already been beaten up,

you told then vhat they wanted to know, you co-operated with

the it by going to point out your friends. Why, having been

forced into that situation of speaking against your will

and telling them what you say is the truth, why did you tell

then another lie according to you now when they asked you

the third night? Any explanation? If you have any, please

say so? — I do not have an explanation. (2C)

Just by the way, how old are you? I mean really, not

what you have told His Lordship up to know, how old are you

really?— I am 17.

What is your date of birth? — 15 June.

What year? — 1966.

COURT : This information is not to be published.

KR BI20S : Are you sure you are not older than 17? — No.

Tou see, I am going to ask you something. His Lordship

here andihe learned assessors and Kr Lekota and we did not

hear in the documents about what you say Mr Lekota did and (30)

said until after your February 1986 detention. Accept that

•. • /from

£231.06 - 3912 - IC.10

fron me and tell us honeBtly, did you not for the first tine

epeak about Rr Lekota after your detention in February 1966?

— What? That I did not talk about bin?

Ko, what I an asking you is, listen carefully and try

end follow, please. After you were detained in February,

or: 17 February 1966, who detained you? Let us start with

that? — A certain White policeman and who is not in the

court-room here is the person vho instructed others to go and

lock me up.

Vho actually detained youir. February? (10)

CGUP.T : What do you mean? Vho locked her up in the prison

or vho came to arrest her?

KH BIZ05 : ;.*ho came to fetch her? — Kel fetched me.

Was Mr Kel alone when he came to fetch you? — No.

With how many others did he cose? — Two.

Black or White? — One White and one Elack.

Do you know the names of the others? — I only know the

Elack one by the r°.ne of Jeff. I do not know what the White

one's name is.

Who spoke to your first and what did he say? — Do you(20)

mean when they came to my home?

Tes? — All they said was thatthey came there to fetch

jne. I asked 1heE why, what wrong have I done, on which they

said you will hear from the people to which we are taking

you.

Whet time did Ilr Kel came there? — It was in the morning

at about 04h00.

At night. In the hours of darkness? — Tee, it was 6till

dark.

Were your parents given any further explanation? — (30)

My ̂ parents did enquire from the Black policeman on which in

... / reply

K231.O9 - 3913 - IC.lO

reply he said he doe6 not know a thing as to vhat 16

The Whites did not say anything to them.

This vas the same Kr Nel thst had had threatened to hit

you? — Yes.

Did the four of you get into a car and where did you go?

— We vent to SA30L.

Vhat happened there?— We were there for some time, not

very long. The one White man remained there at Sasolburg,

vhen ve left for Delmas, namely myself, Jeff and Kel.

•Did you speak along the way on the road? — Ko, they (10)

vere quiet.

Kobody gave you any explanation as to why you were taken

away fron your home at O4hOO in the morning? — Ko«

And you were brought to Del mas? — Yes.

By Mr Nel? — Yes.

To whom were you taken? — I was taken to a certain White

nan here in Delnas. I do not know whether he was a policeman

or not but he is White.

COURT : In the court building here? — Yes.'

K?. BI20S : Were you questioned? — Eo. I accept that I (20)

asked whether I was prepared to come and give evidence ae a

witness here.

Did this White man ask you whether you were prepared to

come and give evidence? — Yes.

What was your answer? — I said I was scared.

Did you say whether you were prepared to give evidence

or not? — I eaid I was scared, I do not want to.

Tou do not want to give evidence.

COURT : Do we place on record then that accused nos. 16 and

accused no. 3 are back. (30)

KR BIZ OS : As Your Lordship pleases. Was a statement taken

. • * / froc:

£231.10 - 3914 - IC.104

from you? — The statement i6 the one I have made "before.

Was no further statement made "before? — No,

Vere you not asked any questions? — Ko.

COUr.C: : Was reference made to your statement? — I was askedwhether I still receiver the contents ofthe statement, on

vhlch I said I 6o not remember anything.

IP. BIZ03 : You said you could not remember anything? — That

is right.

Vhat happened? Vere you given a copy of was any effort

made to refresh your memory? — They then read from it and(10)

asked me whether those were the things that I have xaade men-

tion of in my statement.

Tour statement was read to you? — Yes.

The statement that they read from, was that a handwritten

statement or a typed statement? — It vas typed.

Did you ever sign a typed statement? — Ho.

Are you sure that the statement that was read out to you

in the TOOB in the vicinity of the Court was typed? — Yes.

And the only statement that you signed was a handwritten

statement? — Yes. (20)

Vere you telling the truth to the person that you spoke

to in the vicinity of the court, when you said you did not

remember what was In this statement? — Yes.

If this typewritten statement had not been read out to

you, you would still not have remembered anything? — Ko.

You would not have remembered? — Ko.

Did they not suggest that whilst you have got nothing

to do in detention perhaps it may be veil served by having

a copy of the statement with you? — Do you mean the place

where I was kept In custody? (30)

Yes? — No, they did not give me anything.

. . . / How

1231.12 - 3915 - IC.10

Eov many times has this typewritten 6tatenent been read

ever to you? — Once only.

And vae that enough to refresh your memory of everything?

— Ko, on the 17th is the day vhen this statement was read to

ce. That i6 the day of my detention. Again yesterday, it

was given to me to read through this statement.

Who gave it to you yesterday? — That White man there.

CDJRT : She is pointing to Kr Fick, the prosecutor.

K?. 51205 : Was it the man vith the black robe or the detective?

— The nan vith the black robe. (10)

For hov long did you have a copy of your statement in

your possession yesterday? — I read it through for a long

tise.

Eov nacy times did you read it over? — Kany times.

Vhat time did you arrive here yesterday? — At ebout

IChOO,

Are you sure ebout that? — Yes.

Then what time was your statement given to you?— I cannot

re^enber vhat time it,was.

Was it as soon as you arrived here? — I was here for (20)

6o^e time. After a while they gave me a statement.

In the morning? — Yes.

You see, I as eorry to doubt your word, but His Lordship

was assured yesterday That there were no witnesses in the

vicinity of the court. You must be terribly mistaken? You

are not suggesting that the prosecution misled His Lordship

yesterday that you were here studying the statement ... (Court

Intervenes)

COURT : Just give the witness a chance to answer your first

statement that she was terribly mistaken andthat ehe was (30)

not here Yesterday morning? — I was here yesterday.

... / Korning

E231.1B - 3916 - IC.lO

Morning? — Yes.

KR BIZOS : I withdraw the other question. Did you take the

statement back to your cell vith you? — No, I did not take

it along with me to the cell. What happened is, after reading

it, they took it tack and then returned me tack to Saeol.

Vhat time did you leave for Saeol? — I cannot remember

the time exactly E B to what time it was, but I think it was

at about 14h45.

Were you given a typewritten or a handwritten statement

yesterday whilst you were in the vicinity of the court? —(10)

The typewritten one.

Have you ever seen the handwritten one, the one thr.t you

signed? — Ko, I have not.

Are you able to give Eis Lordship any sort of assurance

that the original statement that you signed is the same as

the typewritten one that you were given yesterday to study?

— Yes.

Do you say that it was? — Yes.

I thought you could not recenber anything? Why was

April better than February? — It is truethat I did not (2~)

remember in that statement.

Ky Lord, I would, however, like to place on record that

we were given an assurance by Mr Jacobs yesterday in the presence

I think of Ky Learned Friend Kr Fick that we would have wit-

nesses from Vryburg today.

ME?.. FICK : Ek kan dit net op rekord plaas • Dit mag seker

so vees. Die getuies van Vryburg is hierso, maar hulle word

gekonsulteer vanoggend. Vryburg is nie agter die bult nle

en hierdie getuie wa6 nader. Daarom i6 die getuie intussen

geroep. (30)

ME EIZOS : I want to ask you, do you remember that there was

• • • / an

E231.20 - 3917 - IC.10

an attack or. your principal? — Yes.

Do you remember that day veil? — Yes.

Never mind vhat the date was. Can you please tell us

whether you had seen Mr Lekota in a race "before that date or

after that date or both before that date and after that date?

— Before the attack on the school, you mean?

COURT : Let us just get clarity. There may have been more

than one attack. The occasion counsel is speaking of ie where

the principal and the teachers were attacked at the parade

and where they fled to the staff-room and where the inspector(10)

was also there and his car was burnt outside?

I". BIZOS : The question is, did you see Kr Lekota just before

or just after or both before and after that date?

C0I7HT : It is placed on record that accused nos. 1 and 10

have also returned. — Before the incidents.

You saw accused no. 20, that is Kr Lekota, before the

attack on the principal and the inspector's car? — Yes.

KF. BIZOS : Bid you 6ee him after the incident? — Ho.

Eow long before that incident did you see Kr Lekota? —

Long. (20)

Eow long before? — I an not able to tell as to hov long

efter that.

You have just said after that. Was that a mistake or

do you stand by that answer?

COURT : After what? — I did not say after. I said before

the incidents I saw him.

K3 BIZ05 : You have just said after that. You cannot remember

how long after that. — The first question put to me was

had I 6een him before the incidents. I said yes and the

next question was, how long after I had seen him, before (30)

these incidents or what the period was between my seeing

. .• / him

E231.22 - 3916 - IC.10

him before the incidents. Then I said it was long after I

had 6een him that these incidents occurred.

Are you being kept in social isolation? — Tea, I an kert

alone.

Completely alone? — I a^ completely alone.

What effect is that having on you? — It is not nice

to stay by yourself.

Bo you find yourself that you are confused? — Tes.

And do you find yourself wanting to please those persons

who have the right -for you to hsve food, comforts or (10)

reading matter? — That one I do not understand. What do you

mean?

Tou are dependent for everything that you need from the

investigating officers in this case? — I did not get anything

from them. All I used to get there was food.

Did you get any reading natter? — They hs.5 given me a

Bible.

Is that all? — Tes.

COUP.T : Let us just get some clarity. Are you held at the

police station or are you held ir a jail? —Police station.(20)

I-P. BIZ OS : Has Jj Eel been visiting you since February when

you are in detention? — No.

When you made the statement in which you implicate your-

self and your friends in such serious matters, did anybody

tell you why you were being released on the third day? — Ko.

\i^re you not shocked that here you admit to doing some

terrible things and then they say rVery well, go home"? —

Ko, I was not shocked.

Or surprised? — No, I was not shocked.

When you signed this handwritten statement, did any- (3C)

one suggest that you could possibly repeat this before a

... / magistrate

1231.26 - 3919 - IC.10y

•* tagistrate?— To.

Who actually told you after you had signed this hand-

written statement, that you are now free to go, you ere not

going to "be chained? — That is hit, Van der Kerve.

CO??. I : Were you told you are free to go or vere you told

you are not going to be charged? — All he said w£E that I

an free, 1 can go.

KP. 5IZOS : Who told you for the first time that you would

go tc prison for a long time? — This White man whose name

is not knovn to me, is the first person who told me about (1C )

Ee told you that in the vicinity of the court? — Yes,

it was in the vicinity of the court.

Bid he explain to you how you could avoid going to prison

for £ long time? — No, he did not tell me that, except

because he said to me if I was a State witness, then I would

not go to jail.

Did he have the typed statement with him when he told

you ebout that?— Tes.

^ Did he tell you whether you could say to the Judge (20)

what you wanted to say or did he tell you that you would have

to stick to that statement? — Ee said I must speak about

what I have made mention of which was written down and nothing

else.

Have you seen this gentleman around the court today or

yesterday who told you to speak about nothing else? — I saw

Mr, yesterday*

And not today? — Ko, I have not seen him.

Perhaps you could describe to us who told you not to

Epeak about anything else, except what was in the state- (3C-)

ment? — Do you mean describe him as a person?

• • • / Tes

1231.31 - 3920 - IC.10

Yes? — It i6 a White man vith white hair and he is

taller than me.

Any other distinctive feature that you can give us? —

Ko.

Vas Mr Kel present when he told you that? — Ko.

'..'ere the two of you alone? — ICo, there was a Black person

present there, vho was the third person.

As an interpreter? — Yes.

In what language wss the statement that you signed, the

handwritten one? — Afrikaans. (10)

And I suppose, coding from P&rys, your Afrikaans ie quite

good? — Yes.

Were you conversing vith this person in Afrikaans or were

you c&king use of the interpreter? — We were conversing in

Afrikaans.

I'id this person by any chance ask you whether you had

been assaulted before you made the statement, that is the

typed statement that is before you? — Yes,he did.

COUKT : Are you not inixing up something? The witness says

ntfe were conversing in Afrikaans," When the statement (20)

was taken originally or now when the man with the white hair

spoke to her?

K?. EIZ03 : i a E referring to the February conversation, the

can vith the white hair.

COTHT: The man vith the white hair was yesterday.

KK EIZOS : That is the incident that I am referring to,

COURT : Ve must start all over again. The language spoken

when the statement was taken was Afrikaans. Is that correct?

— 1 spoke Sotho and it was taken down in Afrikaans.

Vas there an interpreter? — Yes. (30)

So, the statement you signed was taken down in Afrikaans

... / but

1231.32 - 3921 - IC.10

but you 6poke Sotho? — Tes.

I-R BIZOS : The question that I asked you is, this person with

the white hair that asked you whether you had been assaulted

or not, was that yesterday or before? — It was on the 17th.

What did you tell him? — What was the question again?

Vhen the person asked you whether you had been assaulted

before raking the statement, what was your answer? — I said

yes.

And the person that interviewed you in February knew

thst your statement had beer, taken after you had been (10)

sjp.nboked? — I do not know whether he knew about the sjamboking

or not.

But you told him?

COUr.T : Ko, that is the question, whether he asked a further

question after he had been told she had been assaulted,

whether he aaked her "How have you been assaulted?" You are

skipping a couple of questions.

KR BIZOS : Did he ask you how you had been assaulted? —

Ko, he did not go further in asking me whether I was assaulted

or not. (20)

Ee asked you whether you had been assaulted and what you

probably mean is, he did not ask you how you were assaulted?

— Ko, he did not ask as to how I was assaulted*

Vas it then that he said you must just say what is in

your statement and nothing else? — Yes.

And did you take that as a very clear message that you

must not mention the factihat you were assaulted? — Yes.

COURT : What do you mean by yes? — By that I mean he did

not tell me to tell the Court that I was assaulted or not,

except that he eaid to me I must tell the Court about (30)

what is contained in my statement,

... / KR BIZOS

+ E231.56 - 3922 - IC.10

iy. BIZ OS : Ana nothing else? — Yes and added by saying

"and nothing else."

VSB it a clear message you were not to epeak about

your assault in court? — The message I got fror what he was

Baying vas. I was bound to cone an<5 give the evidence which

I a- about to give in court and therefore accepted it that in

order to avoid being kept in jail for a long time or in cus-

tody for a long time as mentioned by hie, I will have to give

evidence and that is all.

Only of what was contained in your statement? — Yes. (10)

Did you understand it that you must not mention to the

ccurt that you had been assaulted? — I did not understand

bin to mean that.

Is that why you felt free to talk to Eis Lordship about

the assault? — Yes.

3ut the message was made very clear to you that you

were not to deviate fron your statenent in any way? — I am

mentioning all these because I as being asked as to whether

I vas assaulted or not.

I can understand your discomfort. Who was the inter- (20)

preter vho helped Mr Van der Kerve and Mr ITelto take your

statement? The rlack man? — I cannot recer-ber vhat his naze

is. He is a Black policecan.

Ead he beer, there the previous two nights?— Yes.

Vae he perhaps one of the persons who sjamboked you? —

They were not assaulting me. The only person who was hitting

me there was I-Ibali.

Was the person who was acting as an interpreter the third

night present whilst 1-Ibs.li was hitting you? — Yes.

Did anyone of the persons present whilst Kb&li was (30)

hitting you, tried to prevent ITbali from hitting you? — Kof

... / nobody

1231.41 - 3S23 - IC.10

nobody tried to stop hie, instead they were laughing.

Was Kr Van der Kerv?e laughing? — All of then present

in there were laughing.

YiTien Kr Kel car.e onto the scene on the 3rd when you were

interrogated, did you have any injuries? — I had injuries

on my body which vere not visible, Sc, he did not see those

injuries.

Vas Kbali the only person who hit you? Or did the others

without necessarily ejarbok, did .any other slap you or do

anything to you? — Ko, not jiysically. They did not (10)

essault me, except to threaten ne about assault.

What were the threats? — For instance saying "We are

going to hit you. Tell the truth."

Y."nen you were being interrogated, if I have counted up

the number cf hours correctly for over ten hours before you

made your statement ... (Court intervenes)

COUP.T : Is that correct? Was the statement not taken as

part of the last four hours plus?

KR BIZ05 : The first night I understood about four hours,

and five hours on the second night and then the statement (20)

on the last night. I think it is a fair estimate. For the

ten hours or so that you were interrogated before your state-

ment was taken, surely the persons who were interrogating you

must have trie! to give you the impression that they knew

what was the truth and what was lies. — What do you mean?

The interrogation lasted approximately ten hours. They

must have told you things like this "We knov? that you are the

girlfriend of a person that ie involved in the Youth Organisa-

tion." Bid they Bay that? — Yes, they said that.

"We know that you hold meetings in the garage"? — (30)

Yes.

... / "We

E231.17 - 3924 - IC.10

"We know that you discussed there vho to attack"? — Yes.

"We know that you are just e lot of youngsters who ere

being ebused by other older people?" — Yes.

"We knov that you attack policemen's houses?"— Yes.

"We knov that you attack councillors1 houses"? — Yes.

"We knov: that it ie not spontaneous that children attecl-

their teachers. They ere put up to it by others"? — Yes.

"V/e know that the UDF is behind all this"? — Yes.

And every tise you said no, these gentlemen became very

upset vith you?—Yes. (10)

And you realised sooner or later that in order to stop

the assaults and th£ hostility that has been shovn to you,

you had better agree to what they vere suggesting? — What

isade me to agree was I wanted thes to leave me alone and

not tc be aggressive towards me in the r.qnner in which they

vere.

And I ac going to suggest to you that never mind a

girl of 17 as you say you are, an even stronger person if

he had been treated the way you vere treated, you vould have

agreed to anything that w as suggested to you? — Yes, I under-(2Z)

stand that.

And did you agree to that? — Yes.

Are you prepared when you leave this witness-box to

please show Ky Learned Friend, the prosecutor and Mr Suther-

land, the young man sitting behind the other attorney, the

person who spoke to you in February if he is around here or

if you see him tomorrow morning, tell these two gentlemen

at the Bame time and point him out to them. — Yes, I can

point him out.

WITEBSS STAKD3 DOWN. (3C)

COURT ADJOPRKS TILL 30 APRIL 1956.

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Document ID:- AK2117-I1-10-73Document Title:- Vol 73 p 3861-3924. Witness: IClo